You respectfully disagree? I'm not going to answer to someone who wist my words around.
Calling Ed an idiot? Are you really that sensitive? I was referring to his answer and yes, I was wrong typing the the words "stupid" ... but really... your wordtwisting is close to that.
This thread has many good feedbacks and it is great to discuss this. We open doors...than close some, and maybe we will find something useful to add at the end.
But guys... do not twist my words around and stop being so sensitive about everything (yes I know, I was also "sensitive" towards Ed and I apologized already).
We're here to be innovative, let's do that instead.
And Micheal, this thread has evolved from the "price is too much sometimes" to "We need a system for buying stacks without having to guess if it's good or not". So the price tag isn't the main issue. I want demo's, maybe a central point for rating or user reviews and then the price would evolve with it in a good way I think.
I'm hoping we can move away from the name-calling and other issues. Some important points have been raised in this thread and it would be useful if those weren't lost.
When stacklets first came out I think we all thought of them as "cheap." But that was before the App Store appeared. I have to admit that my own sense of "pricing" has adjusted. When a stack costs more than a great application (e.g. Byword) that does cause me some pause. I agree that developers can/should charge whatever they want. But it's likely that the App Store (for better or worse) has changed the general consumer's sense of acceptable pricing.
The MUCH bigger issue, for me, is not pricing but the ability to test out a product (whether it be a stack or a plugin or a theme). Is there a reason that developers can't offer demo versions of their products? (Besides "greed": they'd rather dupe the customer than help them.) Now that I know that some developers do offer demos of stacks, there's no reason for me to start buying from those that don't. This may reflect my ignorance, but before some developers offered demos I truly thought it was impossible/difficult for small developers to offer demos of stacks/themes. There have been several developers offering demos of plugins for awhile now.
Perhaps this process is as simple as many of us emailing a developer who offers an interesting product and letting them know that we won't buy if we can't kick the tires (i.e. test out a demo first). If we speak to their wallets first (instead of ours) we may get a gradual change in behavior.
Will developers lose some sales if they provide demos? I think the answer is yes (at least in the short term). However, demos will let developers know first hand which of their products consumers truly find useful and those they don't (so stop developing them). I think sales will go up long term. But frankly it seems, beyond the money, the "ethical" thing to do: give the consumer a demo version so they can see if it really fits their needs.
Developers, as far as I'm concerned, can charge whatever they want for their products. However, my mantra going forward is: No demo, no sale.
Christi: In a general way, "yes." Most apps I've gotten via MAS have demos (even if the developer doesn't advertise this). Others I've upgraded without a demo: but I knew what the app was like beforehand.
The big exception is iPad apps.
But here's the "standard": is it easy for a developer to create a demo? With iPad apps (as far as I know), creating a demo is impossible (or really really hard). I understand that and can go with the flow.
However, it seems with RW plugins, themes, and stacklets that it's fairly easy to create demos (the developer is in charge of the downloads & not Apple, etc. etc.). So if it's easy and reasonable: why not do it?
BTW, most of my apps are still bought outside App store for the very reason that a demo is not available.
I don't think the Apps Store is a fair comparison, because Stacks are being sold in a "Vertical" market place - i.e. to only RW owners who have invested in the Stacks Plugin. Having worked in a similar market place, I know that sales numbers versus development effort, determined the price.
Nowadays all the good developers, at the very least put up Demo Pages, and without seeing these I wouldn't buy at all.
Lets be fair though - we've all purchased software that gets unused when better products doing the same come along. For example, there must be a dozen variants of the Lightbox Stacks, and whilst if I was 'poor' I would still use the first one I purchased - I have long since abandoned it, in favor of graphically better designs.
Another point vis-a-vis pricing. I'm an inveterate "tinkerer' and am always fiddling with the code (css), and whilst I've generally been quite successful with $5 Stacks & Themes, I usually make a mess of the $10 Plus ones. Its then I know that they are worth the price.
Will the developers take any notice of these discussions? The good, canny ones, already have and I think most of them are aware of the relationship between price and the Demand/Supply relationship.
Completely agree with you about the pricing. Overall it seems the prices charged are fair. And the market is much smaller. However, my guess is that unconsciously some people are impacted by the pricing of the App Store when thinking about buying stacks/themes/etc. You make very good points re: the differential pricing structures.
App Store revisited: BTW over the past two months I've seen at least 4 developers I know about "extend" their offerings to include both App store and buying from their website. Previously these developers offered only via App Store.
Why did they change? Politics 101. Several people wanted demos. Several other people said they would not buy via App Store. Over time (several months) these developers saw the reasonableness of these requests and created demos and an alternative method to buying.
Will all developers do this? No. But it seems the "best" ones are going in this direction.
I was really hoping the 'topic' of Demo's wouldn't come up. Because you can't 'compare' Plugin Demos, Theme Demos and Stack Demos.
Have you ever 'cracked' open a Plugin? I have. The coding is extensive to say the least. They also require a license code. So, somewhere, in that coding a 'string' has been created to ensure the 'proper' code has been entered.
A Theme, on the other hand, has an extensive pList. And, if you're not a Theme developer, the settings within can be hard to understand as some 'set' what a specific function will do, or allow, the Theme to do. You can even exclude stylesheets from loading or being available as to 'limit' the functions.
A Stack, not a 'complicated'. I won't go into the 'details' of how I figured it out or what I did to accomplish it. It was more an exercise to see how they accomplished it.
I recall the first 'Demo' I came across, back in the Stack v1 days that had a demo. 3 minutes under the hood, and it was no longer a Demo. It was easy to bypass. I notified the developer.
Is it still that 'easy'? I'm almost sure it is. What do you loose by doing it? Well if you haven't purchased it, then you miss out on updates that make it better. 'Auto updates' are all the 'rage'. If the stack dev in question doesn't use 'auto updates' then you miss out because your not on the 'mailing list' to receive the new updates.
A last word on Pricing. It still amazes me how little most people know about Web Site design and there is a huge number of rip-offs for those contracting out a site.
A relative was paying £1000 a year to BT to manage her site using their own Web Builder - and she was never happy with the result. She was totally amazed when I replicated her site within 30 minutes using Rapidweaver (and a sprinkling of stacks), without writing a single line of code. Yesterday I converted the same site to be readable on iPhones & iPads - again within 30 minutes - plus 10 minutes to publish. She now pays £60 a year for a presence on the Web. I'm going to give her the ability to regularly change her content using Armadillo (a slightly more expensive stack). Believe me - with the inclusion of some cheap stacks her site is vastly more attractive than what she got from BT at an outrageous Price.
She thinks I'm a genius (naturally) - but actually for a small outlay I'm drawing upon the expertise of some great developers whose coding skills are far better than mine.
Ken, indeed, same here with my design company. After all the feedback I have to (personally) conclude that the price is fair for most of the stacks. Will, Joe, doobox etc are good examples of good dev's with relative good stack prices.
I'm struggling more with the appstore-like idea. I would be so nice if we can compare stacks , read about them, and then buy it eventually.
Dev's will loose money in the beginning indeed, but in the long run, the good ones will survive + they have a solid platform for releasing their software + they will have user feedback all in 1 place so they can make things better or even get an idea for a new product.
But folks come here. To seek advice, help, gripe/complain and get input. This is where they ask the question ... 'what can I' and 'how can I'.
More times than not, Devs keep themselves out of the Forums. Folks don't use the Dev's 'support' tools to report bugs/feature requests. A place where they can easily track those requests. End then they end up frustrated. Posting a 'potential' bug here, unless it pertains to RW specifically, is almost pointless unless the Dev is here.
A 'tool' like you suggest could possibly be helpful. But there will always be a 'bias'. And just like Dev's don't have to come here, they won't have to go there. They have their support tools in place.
That's why I personally try to refrain from pointing to a specific 'stack'. I try to provide a variety, everything has different features and capabilities and possible 'skill set needs'. That puts the decision back in the user's hands. Let them decide. Maybe it generates more questions from them and the list can be narrowed. I never suggest a Dev that I haven't used myself, in one way or another. I don't have 'favorites'.
I just try to do the best I can here in the forums as this is where everyone goes.
I just didn't want to see you wander down a path that other's have been down and not succeeded. I wanted to ensure that you were 'as fully aware' as possible, from what I've seen in the past.
RMS tries to keep a 'middle of the road' stance on things 3rd party. Their 'addon' area was an simple move to keep everything 'centralized' for the end user.
6 years ago when I joined nothing existed like that. Hence the birth of the myRapidWeaver site. And I tried to keep it simple and unbiased. Just a big 'link station' where you could find them all and visit their sites.
RapidWeaver Central has since come on the scene and Marten was very open with me when he put it together. Each site serves a purpose in its own way.
More times than not, we - the experienced - don't ask enough questions of those the - less experienced. Then we end up suggesting something, they buy it, then they get frustrated with it and then everything goes downhill from there.
If you choose to pursue it as a project I wish you all the luck. If you succeed, then you'll have done something the others haven't.
Gille, I am glad we have moved beyond the name calling in the discussion, but I did not "twist" your words at all. It may have been inelegantly put though, so...
Beyond that, practical or not, demos would be "nice", and on that point I agree. Ranking Stacks though seems a tough task. Even RealMac's third party add-ons rundown is woefully lacking. I have no idea of how to fix it, but spend a few minutes searching through it and you will discover it is not much better than heading off to each of the developers sites and checking out what is new. As it has been pointed out, it would depend on the developer's participation to succeed. I don't see that happening when some developers have even been "bypassing" the announcement forums here when launching something new (for whatever reason). Having developers occasionally lurk in the forums is a blessing, although there have been a few heated exchanges (which would explain why some of them shy away). It is also the reason I chose to speak out in defense of Ed. I don't want him or any of the other "elder" sages decide it isn't worth it.
peace.
michael
Michael, true. I wouldn't call it "name calling" but it was wrong indeed. I now always will be the guy that called Ed stupid, and that was NOT my intention But we are all human beings aren't we.
I think I will start with 1 dev and see how it wil evolve. I won't rush things, I will be prepared. I've done bigger projects than this so i'm not afraid of it. I just need the support.
Thanks for the feedback, Michael. I appreciate it.
Too bad some un-biased person could do reviews. Or maybe a place on the forum for people to do their own reviews and experience with a stack. What do you think?
@mtmfx if it would be implemented into the forum, it would be nice indeed. But it has to be with some sort of a system, not just a simple text comment.
ColorwaveA rock in the middle of the Pacific OceanPosts: 1,182Members
I don't mean to be argumentative, but I thought that developer support was irrelevant to your user based review site. I thought it was user support that you really needed.
A site like that requires 'another area' they have to 'support'. Maybe not directly, but indirectly, by providing all the proper images and descriptions/info that the site would require. Then, keeping it 'up to date' with relevant changes to the stack(s) that are there.
I'm not sure it has to do with 'profit', whether that be beneficial or monetary, it's about 'support' in general.
They post their wares on their site that they maintain. They post their wares to the 'Announcement' forum to let folks know they are available. And they submit their wares to the Add-Ons area.
So basically, that 3 places they provide information. You were inquiring about adding a 4th. If someone comes along and says 'I can do it better than they can' then they may have a 5th. And, they take into consideration, the past.
Bill is the best man to weigh in on the past. It wasn't very pretty.
I was there when Bill took the bullet. It wasn't pretty indeed. But I still think that Bill didn't deserve that. You mention 3 platforms. Only their own sites are good. The addon area is far from complete and this forum isn't complete either.
I never say that I would succeed (and that I'm better) but I'm a little bit disappointed that nobody wants something more professional, like a main stacks platform full option, 1 place with all the info, links , user comments, ratings etc.
The idea is directly countered.
I have respect for everyone's opinion, so if the idea is not supported... than this is it.
But in Belgium there is a good line for this "Blijven stilstaan is achteruit gaan" -> Staying putt is going backwards (or something like that ).
Comments
You respectfully disagree? I'm not going to answer to someone who wist my words around.
Calling Ed an idiot? Are you really that sensitive? I was referring to his answer and yes, I was wrong typing the the words "stupid" ... but really... your wordtwisting is close to that.
This thread has many good feedbacks and it is great to discuss this. We open doors...than close some, and maybe we will find something useful to add at the end.
But guys... do not twist my words around and stop being so sensitive about everything (yes I know, I was also "sensitive" towards Ed and I apologized already).
We're here to be innovative, let's do that instead.
And Micheal, this thread has evolved from the "price is too much sometimes" to "We need a system for buying stacks without having to guess if it's good or not". So the price tag isn't the main issue. I want demo's, maybe a central point for rating or user reviews and then the price would evolve with it in a good way I think.
http://www.stackscenter.com
RwGrid - Rapidweaver Website Showcase
http://www.rwgrid.com
When stacklets first came out I think we all thought of them as "cheap." But that was before the App Store appeared. I have to admit that my own sense of "pricing" has adjusted. When a stack costs more than a great application (e.g. Byword) that does cause me some pause. I agree that developers can/should charge whatever they want. But it's likely that the App Store (for better or worse) has changed the general consumer's sense of acceptable pricing.
The MUCH bigger issue, for me, is not pricing but the ability to test out a product (whether it be a stack or a plugin or a theme). Is there a reason that developers can't offer demo versions of their products? (Besides "greed": they'd rather dupe the customer than help them.) Now that I know that some developers do offer demos of stacks, there's no reason for me to start buying from those that don't. This may reflect my ignorance, but before some developers offered demos I truly thought it was impossible/difficult for small developers to offer demos of stacks/themes. There have been several developers offering demos of plugins for awhile now.
Perhaps this process is as simple as many of us emailing a developer who offers an interesting product and letting them know that we won't buy if we can't kick the tires (i.e. test out a demo first). If we speak to their wallets first (instead of ours) we may get a gradual change in behavior.
Will developers lose some sales if they provide demos? I think the answer is yes (at least in the short term). However, demos will let developers know first hand which of their products consumers truly find useful and those they don't (so stop developing them). I think sales will go up long term. But frankly it seems, beyond the money, the "ethical" thing to do: give the consumer a demo version so they can see if it really fits their needs.
Developers, as far as I'm concerned, can charge whatever they want for their products. However, my mantra going forward is: No demo, no sale.
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The big exception is iPad apps.
But here's the "standard": is it easy for a developer to create a demo? With iPad apps (as far as I know), creating a demo is impossible (or really really hard). I understand that and can go with the flow.
However, it seems with RW plugins, themes, and stacklets that it's fairly easy to create demos (the developer is in charge of the downloads & not Apple, etc. etc.). So if it's easy and reasonable: why not do it?
BTW, most of my apps are still bought outside App store for the very reason that a demo is not available.
I don't think the Apps Store is a fair comparison, because Stacks are being sold in a "Vertical" market place - i.e. to only RW owners who have invested in the Stacks Plugin. Having worked in a similar market place, I know that sales numbers versus development effort, determined the price.
Nowadays all the good developers, at the very least put up Demo Pages, and without seeing these I wouldn't buy at all.
Lets be fair though - we've all purchased software that gets unused when better products doing the same come along. For example, there must be a dozen variants of the Lightbox Stacks, and whilst if I was 'poor' I would still use the first one I purchased - I have long since abandoned it, in favor of graphically better designs.
Another point vis-a-vis pricing. I'm an inveterate "tinkerer' and am always fiddling with the code (css), and whilst I've generally been quite successful with $5 Stacks & Themes, I usually make a mess of the $10 Plus ones. Its then I know that they are worth the price.
Will the developers take any notice of these discussions? The good, canny ones, already have and I think most of them are aware of the relationship between price and the Demand/Supply relationship.
Ken
Completely agree with you about the pricing. Overall it seems the prices charged are fair. And the market is much smaller. However, my guess is that unconsciously some people are impacted by the pricing of the App Store when thinking about buying stacks/themes/etc. You make very good points re: the differential pricing structures.
Why did they change? Politics 101. Several people wanted demos. Several other people said they would not buy via App Store. Over time (several months) these developers saw the reasonableness of these requests and created demos and an alternative method to buying.
Will all developers do this? No. But it seems the "best" ones are going in this direction.
Have you ever 'cracked' open a Plugin? I have. The coding is extensive to say the least. They also require a license code. So, somewhere, in that coding a 'string' has been created to ensure the 'proper' code has been entered.
A Theme, on the other hand, has an extensive pList. And, if you're not a Theme developer, the settings within can be hard to understand as some 'set' what a specific function will do, or allow, the Theme to do. You can even exclude stylesheets from loading or being available as to 'limit' the functions.
A Stack, not a 'complicated'. I won't go into the 'details' of how I figured it out or what I did to accomplish it. It was more an exercise to see how they accomplished it.
I recall the first 'Demo' I came across, back in the Stack v1 days that had a demo. 3 minutes under the hood, and it was no longer a Demo. It was easy to bypass. I notified the developer.
Is it still that 'easy'? I'm almost sure it is. What do you loose by doing it? Well if you haven't purchased it, then you miss out on updates that make it better. 'Auto updates' are all the 'rage'. If the stack dev in question doesn't use 'auto updates' then you miss out because your not on the 'mailing list' to receive the new updates.
Just my 2¢.
FreeStack Theme
MacSupportCasts
{ old forum post count = 6128 }
A last word on Pricing. It still amazes me how little most people know about Web Site design and there is a huge number of rip-offs for those contracting out a site.
A relative was paying £1000 a year to BT to manage her site using their own Web Builder - and she was never happy with the result. She was totally amazed when I replicated her site within 30 minutes using Rapidweaver (and a sprinkling of stacks), without writing a single line of code. Yesterday I converted the same site to be readable on iPhones & iPads - again within 30 minutes - plus 10 minutes to publish. She now pays £60 a year for a presence on the Web. I'm going to give her the ability to regularly change her content using Armadillo (a slightly more expensive stack). Believe me - with the inclusion of some cheap stacks her site is vastly more attractive than what she got from BT at an outrageous Price.
She thinks I'm a genius (naturally) - but actually for a small outlay I'm drawing upon the expertise of some great developers whose coding skills are far better than mine.
Ken
I'm struggling more with the appstore-like idea. I would be so nice if we can compare stacks , read about them, and then buy it eventually.
Dev's will loose money in the beginning indeed, but in the long run, the good ones will survive + they have a solid platform for releasing their software + they will have user feedback all in 1 place so they can make things better or even get an idea for a new product.
User feedback is golden.
http://www.stackscenter.com
RwGrid - Rapidweaver Website Showcase
http://www.rwgrid.com
User's will continue to post here, primarily, as this is the Forum and the place to get assistance.
FreeStack Theme
MacSupportCasts
{ old forum post count = 6128 }
Change is not always a bad thing.
But indeed Ed... like you said. Who's going to make it and will there be 100% support?
I don't have the answer.
http://www.stackscenter.com
RwGrid - Rapidweaver Website Showcase
http://www.rwgrid.com
But folks come here. To seek advice, help, gripe/complain and get input. This is where they ask the question ... 'what can I' and 'how can I'.
More times than not, Devs keep themselves out of the Forums. Folks don't use the Dev's 'support' tools to report bugs/feature requests. A place where they can easily track those requests. End then they end up frustrated. Posting a 'potential' bug here, unless it pertains to RW specifically, is almost pointless unless the Dev is here.
A 'tool' like you suggest could possibly be helpful. But there will always be a 'bias'. And just like Dev's don't have to come here, they won't have to go there. They have their support tools in place.
That's why I personally try to refrain from pointing to a specific 'stack'. I try to provide a variety, everything has different features and capabilities and possible 'skill set needs'. That puts the decision back in the user's hands. Let them decide. Maybe it generates more questions from them and the list can be narrowed. I never suggest a Dev that I haven't used myself, in one way or another. I don't have 'favorites'.
I just try to do the best I can here in the forums as this is where everyone goes.
FreeStack Theme
MacSupportCasts
{ old forum post count = 6128 }
Thanks for the sniper-sharp feedback. I won't call it stupid again hehe
If someone of realmac is reading this thread, any feedback form you guys?
http://www.stackscenter.com
RwGrid - Rapidweaver Website Showcase
http://www.rwgrid.com
RMS tries to keep a 'middle of the road' stance on things 3rd party. Their 'addon' area was an simple move to keep everything 'centralized' for the end user.
6 years ago when I joined nothing existed like that. Hence the birth of the myRapidWeaver site. And I tried to keep it simple and unbiased. Just a big 'link station' where you could find them all and visit their sites.
RapidWeaver Central has since come on the scene and Marten was very open with me when he put it together. Each site serves a purpose in its own way.
More times than not, we - the experienced - don't ask enough questions of those the - less experienced. Then we end up suggesting something, they buy it, then they get frustrated with it and then everything goes downhill from there.
If you choose to pursue it as a project I wish you all the luck. If you succeed, then you'll have done something the others haven't.
FreeStack Theme
MacSupportCasts
{ old forum post count = 6128 }
http://www.stackscenter.com
RwGrid - Rapidweaver Website Showcase
http://www.rwgrid.com
Beyond that, practical or not, demos would be "nice", and on that point I agree. Ranking Stacks though seems a tough task. Even RealMac's third party add-ons rundown is woefully lacking. I have no idea of how to fix it, but spend a few minutes searching through it and you will discover it is not much better than heading off to each of the developers sites and checking out what is new. As it has been pointed out, it would depend on the developer's participation to succeed. I don't see that happening when some developers have even been "bypassing" the announcement forums here when launching something new (for whatever reason). Having developers occasionally lurk in the forums is a blessing, although there have been a few heated exchanges (which would explain why some of them shy away). It is also the reason I chose to speak out in defense of Ed. I don't want him or any of the other "elder" sages decide it isn't worth it.
peace.
michael
I think I will start with 1 dev and see how it wil evolve. I won't rush things, I will be prepared. I've done bigger projects than this so i'm not afraid of it. I just need the support.
Thanks for the feedback, Michael. I appreciate it.
http://www.stackscenter.com
RwGrid - Rapidweaver Website Showcase
http://www.rwgrid.com
http://www.stackscenter.com
RwGrid - Rapidweaver Website Showcase
http://www.rwgrid.com
http://www.stackscenter.com
RwGrid - Rapidweaver Website Showcase
http://www.rwgrid.com
I'm posting this for all the people that took the time for giving feedback in this tread.
I've hoped for a better result and believe me, i've tried. I was wrong it seems and i'm not embarrassed to say it.
Gille
http://www.stackscenter.com
RwGrid - Rapidweaver Website Showcase
http://www.rwgrid.com
Ron
Colorwave Imaging & Colorwave Hosting
You don't forget anything do you
http://www.stackscenter.com
RwGrid - Rapidweaver Website Showcase
http://www.rwgrid.com
A site like that requires 'another area' they have to 'support'. Maybe not directly, but indirectly, by providing all the proper images and descriptions/info that the site would require. Then, keeping it 'up to date' with relevant changes to the stack(s) that are there.
FreeStack Theme
MacSupportCasts
{ old forum post count = 6128 }
http://www.stackscenter.com
RwGrid - Rapidweaver Website Showcase
http://www.rwgrid.com
They post their wares on their site that they maintain. They post their wares to the 'Announcement' forum to let folks know they are available. And they submit their wares to the Add-Ons area.
So basically, that 3 places they provide information. You were inquiring about adding a 4th. If someone comes along and says 'I can do it better than they can' then they may have a 5th. And, they take into consideration, the past.
Bill is the best man to weigh in on the past. It wasn't very pretty.
FreeStack Theme
MacSupportCasts
{ old forum post count = 6128 }
I never say that I would succeed (and that I'm better) but I'm a little bit disappointed that nobody wants something more professional, like a main stacks platform full option, 1 place with all the info, links , user comments, ratings etc.
The idea is directly countered.
I have respect for everyone's opinion, so if the idea is not supported... than this is it.
But in Belgium there is a good line for this "Blijven stilstaan is achteruit gaan" -> Staying putt is going backwards (or something like that
http://www.stackscenter.com
RwGrid - Rapidweaver Website Showcase
http://www.rwgrid.com