Can we stop the Pre-Announcement Trends?

joeworkman · March 2010

I hate to be a party pooper here but can we stop the trend of pre-annoucing stacks? I recommend using twitter for something like this instead of the announcements forum. If you are going to release in 1 or 2 days, SWEET, go ahead and announce then. This is just my opinion and please don't take it personally.

Please let me know if I am going crazy....

(I know this thread is not an announcement but its related to this forum, that

dennycrane8 · March 2010

I agree completely with this suggestion. This will ensure all
comments regarding a new product are kept contained within
one thread and thus avoiding confusion, duplication, and
extra work to follow a specific product.

Hark! · March 2010

100% agree. It's frustrating to read about what is in the works, when I am subscribed to many developer's email lists. I would prefer to get an email than have a pre-announcement listed on the messageboard.

violette · March 2010

Twitter rulezzzz

yolanda- · March 2010

Well why not?
Sometimes I think it is fine to know, and than you can subscribe or look again if it is released if you are interested.

For example, I am glad to hear that there will be a new stack soon from Brian, I was looking for something new, now I know it is coming and I can look forward to it and wait.

So maybe it is not the right place on "announcement" but it is fine to know it is coming.

maybe I am wrong but that's my opinion

regards,

yolanda

Tim (idsign-shop) · March 2010

Joe

we can do a pre pre-announcement (just kidding). I didn't liked it either. GOOD idea to step forward!! a anouncement is there for announcing something new to order or download like stacks, themes, plugins or whatever and not to anounce that there is coming up a announcement!!

Tim (idsign-shop)

Michael Monaco · March 2010

Totally agree Joe. I was going to say something years ago but I thought "whom am I".

NormanT · March 2010

I am 1000% percent in agreement about this. This not only affects stacks but also themes and plug-ins as well. There are dedicated forums for that - so if you have something in development then go to the 3rd party plug-in/theme development forums and post any things that you are going to be in there and don't unnecessary clog up the Announcement forum.

I have asked if it would be possible for a dedicated stack forum but nothing has been done about this and really this should be set up by RealMac and should be done as soon as possible - so how about it RealMac are you listening do you ever attend or visit these forums and take note or have you just disappeared altogether and cannot be bothered?

Regards
Norman

Jamie Kelley · March 2010

on 1268019436:

so how about it RealMac are you listening do you ever attend or visit these forums and take note or have you just disappeared altogether and cannot be bothered?

Oh, so you noticed too, did you?

I think Realmac is far too distracted with other software, iPod apps, social networking betas to bother much about us Weavers. They've been there, done it and moved on...

LazarovDesign · March 2010

on 1268043825:

on 1268019436:

so how about it RealMac are you listening do you ever attend or visit these forums and take note or have you just disappeared altogether and cannot be bothered?

Oh, so you noticed too, did you?

I think Realmac is far too distracted with other software, iPod apps, social networking betas to bother much about us Weavers. They've been there, done it and moved on...

+1.

Tappo · March 2010

on 1268007367:

I hate to be a party pooper here but can we stop the trend of pre-annoucing stacks? I recommend using twitter for something like this instead of the announcements forum. If you are going to release in 1 or 2 days, SWEET, go ahead and announce then.

I agree, Joe

on 1268043825:

I think Realmac is far too distracted with other software, iPod apps, social networking betas to bother much about us Weavers. They've been there, done it and moved on...

+2.

Nik · March 2010

on 1268019436:

I have asked if it would be possible for a dedicated stack forum but nothing has been done about this and really this should be set up by RealMac and should be done as soon as possible - so how about it RealMac are you listening do you ever attend or visit these forums and take note or have you just disappeared altogether and cannot be bothered?

Hi Guys

Firstly: we're absolutely still around: if you take a look at both Luke and my post histories, you'll see that we're still very much about. As we don't handle tech support via the forums anymore, we're around a little less though. As I've mentioned to others that have suggested this forum, we'll take a look into it - however I'm not sure how it would fit into our current forums groups as Stacks is part of RapidWeaver, though not a Realmac product.

on 1268043825:

I think Realmac is far too distracted with other software, iPod apps, social networking betas to bother much about us Weavers. They've been there, done it and moved on...

It's easy to see silence with RapidWeaver as a sign of 'nothing happening'. However the irony is that silence is due to the fact that we've nothing to announce yet. We're hard at work on RapidWeaver 4.4 and more, and as soon as we're ready to announce something, we will of course do so!

Whilst we do have new products alongside RapidWeaver now, it shouldn't be considered a sign that we're ignoring or not working on RapidWeaver. As for iPhone apps: you may remember that we sold LittleSnapper for iPhone, specifically because - with us spending our time working on our Mac apps more - we couldn't dedicate the time we really wanted to to it.

Thanks!

Nik

JohnJ · March 2010

I think one of the reasons for pre-release announcements are to make sure that other devs are not working on the same product. What I would like to see here is a generic thread. This would allow the people who want to pre-announce their products to do so, yet would not pollute the thread. I think the other side of pre-release is a dev. may want to see if there is interest in the new product before they put the hours into working out all the bugs with a particular project.

I do not want more email from anybody. I get enough now.

I would rather approach the topic in a positive way that does not limit a developer. I think a happy medium can be reached. A better way to do this may be to have each dev. have a new product announcement thread. They would keep all there announcements in that thread. Still another option to avoid this problem could be to edit the announcement thread to indicate it was released. This would keep it to one thread per product.

I have been enjoying the announcement threads. It is so easy to just skip what doesn't interest you. I also don't like placing rules on people. The less rules the better in my opinion. I have seen posts where people don't want 3rd part stuff announced at all. Be careful what you ask for, you may just get it.

Ed Brenner · March 2010

Thanks for the input Nik! I know you guys are busy behind the scene working things out and glad that you are.

And support on the Forums is for us as end users to help each other out.

I think RMS should add a Stacks Forum. We have one for Themes and one for Plugins so why not one for Stacks. It would surely help the moderators move miss placed posts by other users that have a Stack specific question. Then the 3rd Party Devs would have a place to frequently check for any issues and if they feel the need to throw an idea out there (or a pre announcement) they could do so in that Forum.

NormanT · March 2010

on 1268072139:

Hi Guys

Firstly: we're absolutely still around: if you take a look at both Luke and my post histories, you'll see that we're still very much about. As we don't handle tech support via the forums anymore, we're around a little less though. As I've mentioned to others that have suggested this forum, we'll take a look into it - however I'm not sure how it would fit into our current forums groups as Stacks is part of RapidWeaver, though not a Realmac product.

It's easy to see silence with RapidWeaver as a sign of 'nothing happening'. However the irony is that silence is due to the fact that we've nothing to announce yet. We're hard at work on RapidWeaver 4.4 and more, and as soon as we're ready to announce something, we will of course do so!

Whilst we do have new products alongside RapidWeaver now, it shouldn't be considered a sign that we're ignoring or not working on RapidWeaver. As for iPhone apps: you may remember that we sold LittleSnapper for iPhone, specifically because - with us spending our time working on our Mac apps more - we couldn't dedicate the time we really wanted to to it.

Thanks!

Nik

Nik,

Thanks for the post and nice to know that you are still around. I was not having a got at you personally but it did seem as though you guys were not around and for some of us it appeared you had disappeared of the face of middle (RW) earth. Nice to hear that you are hard at it - pardon the pun - working on RW 4.4

I have to beg to differ as I and others think that a separate Stacks forum would be better and probably long overdue. Stacks as I am sure you are only to aware has become the best thing to have made RW a lot better and probably expanded its ease of use. There is already a theme and 3rd party plug-ins forums and I think Stacks having its own forum will make it easier for everyone and will "free up" the Announcements forum. So I would like you guys to re-consider - otherwise I will have to start stalking you guys ]:-o

Regards
Norman

Hark! · March 2010

John, the Plugin Development forum is the best place for developers to discuss current and future plugins, isn't it?

http://www.realmacsoftware.com/forums/index.php/forums/viewforum/16/

mikex · March 2010

What if each developer created their own forum pages for their developments?

It would spread the knowledge out a bit, free up the forum posts about supporting specific Stacks and drive traffic to their own respective sites.

Just a thought.

Mike X

ethan · March 2010

As for myself i like the present set up. i can see in a glance all what is happening. the theme,plugin,stacks updates etc. in this present setup the announcement section never dries up. this maybe the reason why its one of the most active. if all the developers of stack,theme and plugin will have its own forum ill definitely cant catchup. but one thing i dont like is announcing something several weeks before the actual launch. maybe 2 weeks max is reasonable.

JohnJ · March 2010

Hi Jeff, I understand what you are saying. It does on the suggestion seem to make sense. The reason I don't like it is that on many days I do not have times to check all the topics. It is very nice for me to be able to stop at the announcements and get my news. As Ethan points out in his post, it is easier to just have to check one topic.

Mike, your idea would just be to much like work to stay up to date. The current system allows for the little devs to only have to worry about developing. Seems to me Mike based on that we wouldn't need the "Announcement" area at all. I suppose at that point perhaps users that want that should bypass this area of the forum.

All RapidWeaver users benefit from the announcement area and current setup.I suppose you can look at anything and find flaws with it. Nothing is perfect. I just don't see the issue. If you are not interested in a topic, don't click it. I do that all the time. Right now I am not purchasing themes. I bought too many already. I used to click, too often that lead to buying.

I say let them announce away. They certainly get hits. Somebody is interested in them. Lately people seem to be "policing" the forum. Lying in wait to pounce if somebody posts in the wrong forum. This is why many sites have rules about users are not to police the forum. That should be left to the forum moderators. If you want to be a mod see about becoming one. No reason for members to police other members. This board has some of the best mods in the business.

Brett · March 2010

As usual, apologies in advance for a lengthy post.

Wow, Joe found a hot-button with this one. I agree with the general idea of his original post -- there are starting to be a lot of pre-release and pre-pre and then release and re-release.

And, +100 on a Stacks forum, because Isaiah has created a monster plugin that has transformed the way we use Rapidweaver. The sheer number of Stacks releases are overwhelming the Announcement forum. Nik's point is a valid one; Stacks is not part of Rapidweaver itself. But it's also too big to bury in a Third-Party Plugins discussion -- it would overwhelm that too. A Stacks Announcements forum (separate from a Stacks-general forum) would, in my opinion, be a very good use of some server space.

@Nik -- thanks for the reply! I don't think the majority of Weavers thought you'd abandoned us. We're ready for whatever comes our way in the next RW. Very nice post, as always.

@JohnJ #1 -- I think you make some good points. Testing the waters is necessary for a dev, but perhaps not in a post indicating an imminent release. Also, re: having an announcement thread for each dev, that could get confusing -- most novice RW users don't really know the developers, but love their product. That could mean each product having its own thread, which would be overwhelming.

@Hark -- if John's intended audience is mostly other devs, then I'd agree. If not, I'd guess that most "regular" users don't venture there.

@JohnJ #2 -- Again, good points. On some of these, however, I have some divergent thoughts. "If you are not interested in an item, don't click it." Straightforward, and true. But also true is that the Announcement thread is filling mostly with Stacks, and bumps of Stacks threads -- great news for most of us, but I'll touch below on why I think there's a negative side to that. "I say let them announce away." Agree, completely. But I also agree that giving Stacks its own forum will allow the Announcements thread to revert to themes and new innovations and plugins.

Touching on another factor in all this --I think the forum's intended behavior of bumping replied-to topics, is backfiring in the Announcements/Stacks realm. Stacks are announced with astounding frequency. Often there are "update" posts with titles like STACK-MAKING STACK, UPDATED! NEW VERSION, but then that thread fills with discussion around hiccups, praise, fixes, and frequently bounces back up to the top, crowding out actually-new announcements and making me wonder if I need to re-download a Stack I've purchased, since there's no ready way to see what version I have installed.

I don't mean to take the thread off-topic, but I think Joe's post opens up several discussion points.

1. Reducing the number of pre-announcement announcements. IMO, a good idea.
2. Creating 1 or 2 Stacks forums, for Announcements and for general discussion/support.
3. We need to figure out a system for updated stacks, and how to keep those threads from confusing the Announcements forum and users. You don't "register" a stack. Not all Stacks devs use email, and Stacks can't yet auto-update. Until then, any suggestions?

See what happens, Isaiah, when you go and change EVERYTHING?

Bring on the ideas!

Brett

Brett · March 2010

...plus, when I'm ready to announce the new awesome RW site I'm working on, I don't want my announcement to get lost among all these people making amazing stacks that I'm going to then buy and use to build my site even better with.

;-)

John T. Folden · March 2010

I'd also like to chime in and state that I really don't like all the pre-announcement announcements, etc... Generally when I read an announcement about something then I expect it's either a finished product or a public beta is at least available for download.

I, also, think it would be great if there were an area just for Stacks-related items.

shukapaw · March 2010

Ok, As one of the "guilty parties" here, I'm gonna weigh in. I am in contact with a number of Stacks developers who shall remain nameless. I know that a few of us have posted "coming soon" announcements to "stake our claim" on a stack concept. I suppose that by demonstrating the Stack in public, it kinda gives you "dibs" on it..... and for the most part, it has worked.

These stacks are coming at a fast and furious pace and it is quite dis-heartening when you've been working on a stack for a week or so and, just prior to release, another developer releases the identical Stack. It's happened to me and I know of 3 others who have had the same thing happen. Some do the honorable thing, lick their wounds and back off, others release a quasi-identical product. What is the right course of action?

Who can keep track of all the Stacks out there. I've got almost 300 in my Stacks folder. There are stacks out there for sale from vendor A that are absolutely free from vendor B. There are Stacks that appear identical on the surface but have subtle differences beneath the hood.

Let me say this, "In spite of the fact that all the developers are selling to the same limited group of people, there is, for the most part, fantastic cooperation and collaboration amongst us." I am not afraid to send a semi-finished Stack to a few developers for review/comment and possible code tweaking. I get some good, honest constructive criticism from them. I personally test Stacks for four other developers and I try to do a good job and help them make a better product. I'm amazed that I am corresponding with guys from all parts of the country as well as around the globe and I believe that all of us wish each other well.

Ok, time to step down from my soapbox. I think the only good answer to this scenario is a Stacks-specific forum. Maybe Stacks isn't a RealMacSoftware product but I believe it is going to be instrumental in RapidWeaver's long-term success.

Now, everybody head on over to my Stacks store and buy something! ;-)

Brian

WebKarnage · March 2010

Hi all,

I am with Brian here, and have been one of those who has developed more than one stack to see it appear elsewhere before I release it. I think that a Stacks forum where pre-release announcements of the type Brian alludes to could be made to prevent people from dual developing as well as other discussions, and this could then free up the Announcement forum for full releases.

I would hazard a guess that there are more than 3 stacks to every plugin for RapidWeaver and that has it's own forum, so Nik, you're argument doesn't really hold for me. Community has been one of the largest factors in the success of RapidWeaver and that still needs the same thought and care it ever did.

with best regards,
Karn.

Nik · March 2010

Hi Guys

We've just set up a new forum for your use!

http://www.realmacsoftware.com/forums/index.php/forums/viewforum/60/

As we'll be fairly active in moving over Stacks announcements to this new forum, if you're posting a Stack announcement please take the time to post in the appropriate forum!

http://www.realmacsoftware.com/forums/index.php/forums/viewthread/32020/

Kind Regards,

Nik

NormanT · March 2010

on 1268147511:

Hi Guys

We've just set up a new forum for your use!

http://www.realmacsoftware.com/forums/index.php/forums/viewforum/60/

As we'll be fairly active in moving over Stacks announcements to this new forum, if you're posting a Stack announcement please take the time to post in the appropriate forum!

http://www.realmacsoftware.com/forums/index.php/forums/viewthread/32020/

Kind Regards,

Nik

Nik,

Many thanks for this and consider my stalking of you over!!! I am now heading over to the new Stacks forum to see what goodies are all there.

Regards
Norman

Nik · March 2010

Hi Guys

Just a quick update: I've also moved over a few threads so it's not as threadbare

Cheers

-N

seyDoggy · March 2010

on 1268007367:

...can we stop the trend of pre-annoucing stacks?

Yes please! The same goes for Themes and Plugins as far as I am concerned. I have never been a fan of this. Announce it when you have something real to announce.

WebKarnage · March 2010

@Nik,

Thanks for doing this, it's the type of listening you guys do that some other developers (and some of us here on the forum) could learn from.

Re-reading my post, I hope that didn't come across too pointed, it reads more that way than it was meant to be. It should have been more along the lines of keeping up the way you look after the community, rather than sounding like you ned to change.

with best regards,
Karn.

dhidding · March 2010

Nik - thanks as well. Stacks has totally changed the way I develop my sites - I can't imaging developing a RW site without Stacks. Having their own forum just makes sense. I predict it's going to become the most used forum...especially if people start using it to ask help-related Stacks-specific questions.

I, too, am in total agreement with Brian regarding the pre-announcements. I think they serve a very valid purpose by letting the other stack developers know what is being worked on. Although I haven't created any Stacks (yet!), I know that a lot of hard work and sweat equity go into them. It's gotta be a little disheartening to get close to releasing one...only to find out that someone else beat you to the punch. I also know that some (¿most?) Stack developers bounce ideas off one another once they've begun developing a particular Stack. The pre-announcement is a great way to say "I had a great idea for a Stack...but it's no longer just an idea...it's coming to fruition."

I could be wrong - but so far, I can't remember a single instance of pre-announcements being vaporware. In Brian's spirit of co-operation amongst the developers, I say, no problem-o.

Just my 2¢

Dave

dpuett · March 2010

Personally, I would liked to have seen a pre-announcement for this thread.

Realmac Software

Can we stop the Pre-Announcement Trends?

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