All too often, when general questions are posted here, a developer will step in and insist that any/all questions be directed to their own forum (e.g., a Google Group, Zen Help Desk, etc.). I'm not sure if this is due to a desire to keep any (perceived) negative attention off the boards…or if the developer thinks he/she has a better system in place.
on 1325650005:
There are also a handful of really great designers (Themes and Stacks) who never seem to post here - unless they are making an announcement. That's their decision - but it's mine to not support them financially. In most cases I have been able to purchase a similar theme or stack - and will continue to do so.
on 1325650005:
As an end user, I want to ask my questions here…and expect to get answers here. Please don't make me go looking elsewhere. Being forced to join a dozen groups might just lead me (and others) to non-RapidWeaver solutions.
I think for the most part it's not that the developers want to hide something, or the developer thinks they have a better system in place, etc... It's usually just a matter of how a developer can serve you best (fastest).
As developers we have to have eyes on our support systems first and foremost, as that's usually (not always) the first place the paying customer goes when they have a problem. That's the place where their needs will be addressed the fastest.
After we have addressed the needs in our own systems we all try and keep our ears on the forum, twitter, Facebook, etc.. It's not that these streams are secondary or unimportant to our own support systems, it's just that they're just not focussed enough to be efficient channels of support. Dozens of threads could go through these forums each hour and not one of them concerning a particular developers wares.
So when we stumble across a thread that's maybe a few days (or weeks) old with that person looking for support, we'll answer the thread then and there but always suggest that future support be directed to places where our focus lies.
Nobody wants to force you to use another system, and by all means keep using these forums for third party support if that's what you're most comfortable with, just keep in mind that it may take longer then it would elsewhere.
Nobody wants to force you to use another system, and by all means keep using these forums for third party support if that's what you're most comfortable with, just keep in mind that it may take longer then it would elsewhere.
Thanks Adam. In the 'old' days, the developers were able to keep a closer eye on these forums. Times have changed, the user-base is much larger and I understand that the developer's time is probably best spent monitoring their own boards, help desks, etc. I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm also perfectly fine if my questions on the RW boards go unanswered (they do, sometimes) - or if other users (not the devs) help me out.
My issue reflects what Brian mentioned earlier - devs who strongly suggest (or demand) that all questions/issues be submitted via a different site other then this forum. Some have done so in order to weed out the vague questions - but others have done so (I believe) to avoid public disclosure of any problems with their products. I was burned in this fashion (no names) when a product I purchased didn't/wouldn't work with my hosting company. At the time, the dev did not have any sort of disclosure on his site - but I later came to find out that he knew it wouldn't work with at least one host provider (mine) before I purchased it. I was instructed to take the thread off-line (which I did) - and basically told to take it up with my provider. Since that episode, I've noted on several occasions where devs insist that 'issues' be directed elsewhere.
Very best,
Dave
PS - Working with a wonderful tech at my provider, I was able to find a solution to the problem. I've since PMed several other RW users with the solution (but, sadly, not the developer who treated me rudely and, I believe, unfairly).
1. The upgrade to RW 5, was an unmitigated disaster... the stigma remains...
Likely true.
on 1325723686:
2. The upgrade to Lion, was problematical...
It's certainly plausible with any software that relies on 3rd party contributors (which was the leading cause of troubles in your first point).
on 1325723686:
3. The arrival of Stacks1... a new gravy train for some mediocre developers...
This kind of hits on the the growing pains of RapidWeaver development as a whole. In 2005 none of us knew much of anything. That was "ok" back then, it was the wild west of RapidWeaver, things were simple, the user base small. After a few years an unspoken standard grew, developers respected each others realms (themes vs plugins) to avoid code conflicts and ensure compliant sites.
When Stacks 1 was launched the developmental bar started out very low with nearly no barrier to entry. Anyone who could pull a code snippet off the web could make a stack.
It was the wild west of RapidWeaver all over again and it took a bit to reign in some developmental standards. A few point releases into Stacks 1 and developers had to know a bit more, take more care and have a common respect for the environment that they were throwing code into.
on 1325723686:
4. Themes have evolved into “monsters” with thousand of lines of code... [RW Classroom], invites people to tinker with themes. This was reasonably safe with early themes... but users modify advanced SeyDoggy themes at their peril.
Yes, this is true. Though I don't see how this contributes to negativity on the forum.
on 1325723686:
5. HTML5 and CSS3, demand more, stricter coding – eg end tags in HTML5... older plugins, stacks and themes being used with RW 5 & Stacks 2 are found wanting.
On the contrary, HTML5 is not as strict as the officially supported XHTML spec. End tags, just as in previous iterations of the HTML spec, are not necessary in HTML5, only in XHTML.
But this has nothing to do with RW5 and or Stacks 2. RW5 officially supports XHTML but is more or less DOCTYPE agnostic as long as the Tidied/Optimized options are left alone. And as for Stacks 2, it's completely DOCTYPE agnostic and could care less what spec was used.
If you're being told that there are issues concerning XHTML vs HTML then it's possible that either party may not fully understand the problem and/or the answer.
on 1325723686:
6. There is no longer any printable RW Guides for new users...
Very true.
on 1325723686:
7. Stacks 2... has been a major game changer that many “older?” developers have just completely ignored. I estimate that some 60% of my Stacks will never be updated...
And I estimate that 100% of all 2004 Pontiac Montana's that did not come equipped with side airbags will not get said side airbags by the time they reach the end of their functional lives.
Maybe I've never understood the relevance or the impact of this argument but I just don't see what you're getting at. I never have.
Sure, old stacks can have new grouping features added, and I'm sure over time that most will, but apart from that, what are old stacks missing that makes this such a travesty? And what does this contribute to forum negativity?
on 1325723686:
8. Inter-developer rivalry...
Developer vs developer? Developers are pretty friendly and like to help each other out. There have been some arguments in the past, but in the end they are always worked out amicably and usually with a renewed sense of camaraderie and work ethic thereafter.
on 1325723686:
Every developer... uses these forums to advertise their products, and in all probability, obtain the majority of their sales from here... ALL developers must be prepared for some (often valid) criticism...
True we are allowed to market our wares here (free) but by no means is this where the majority of our sales come from. This is usually the last channel we announce our wares on and do so mainly as a service to those who prefer this stream of information.
I'm not bothered by founded criticisms here provided that it's rooted in fact (or best understanding) and not some personal agenda.
on 1325723686:
Six months AFTER the release of RW 5 I was sold some themes that would only work properly in RW 4.4 or if the new functionality in RW 5.2 was disabled.
This is not true. Any theme made for RapidWeaver 3.6 of beyond will still work in RapidWeaver 5.x today. Trust me, I know.
The only "new functionality" in RapidWeaver 5.x capable of rendering a theme useless is CSS consolidation. This is no fault of the theme or it's developer but a bug in the process within RapidWeaver. CSS consolidation can crush some themes worse then others or have no effect at all. It's a work in progress and RMS has made strides to get this feature working properly for all themes.
The only other feature (not new) that can have similar devastating effects on a theme is the Tidied/Optimized function when used with an HTML5 theme. This is a conscious choice by many theme developers, as some feel it's necessary to push RapidWeaver forward and keep pace with current trends and standards. But this would be true no matter which version of RapidWeaver is in use.
Anyhow, in closing, some good points worth keeping in mind.
When Ken speak's Ken can quite stir things up but I agree with many things he's said.
From the previous thread by Ken I actually had an interesting and very plesant email exchange with him just before Christmas. I too have been 'burned' by Dev's but I generally say nothing and just remember never to buy from them again. Also, there is quite a few Dev's out there who's store's are still open yet there is a disclaimer saying "Does not work with RW 5" (at least there is a disclaimer) or other's who's copyright notice has not been updated sine 2009.
I think it is impossible to turn back the clock and as Ken point's out the landscape now is much more complex than in RW 3.0/4.0 day's. Theme's are much more complex because that's what the people wanted. Stack's 2.0 blow's the lid of RW and as a result it has become more complex.
Think of Photoshop... If you have been using Photoshop since the early day's 1.0/2.0/3.0... you will have grown with the product and as the new features were added you will quickly have grasped them and added these tools to your workflow. Now think of somebody starting out with CS5.5!! It's so flipping complex that you need a 2 week training course to get through the most common functions.
RW is evolving, the web is evolving and standards are evolving, consequently new level's of complexity are introduced and along the way there is a few bump's in the road.
However, generally bad mouthing developers is not good as it bring's the general perception of the developers down and effect's the RW community as a whole. There are several developers who, if I could prove they knowingly cheated me I would have no problem with dragging them down into the mud, but without proof I say noting, do not recommend there products and never buy from them again.
On the other hand there is many developers who go the extra mile and quite a bit more, (Adam Merrifield with his excellent Google group and Will Woodgate) and I know everybody has there favorites who they have build up a relationship with over time. So, it's not all doom and gloom.
For one, I like mad Ken I just think he's misunderstood because I know understand exactly what's he's talking about.
Larry, great post! Wow, that was the day and times! Tom, Tom, Tom, what a great help he was! I remember trying to align some text right, he showed me a sample of the code. I got it wrong and he helped me through it. He told me to just look at the code from other sites then use it on my own.
Play I did. I used my growing code knowledge mixed with my marketing skills to create RapidWeaverSEO.com I found out that there was a need back then. Now the message of "content sells" and "proper site structure" is important and is taken for granted.
Back in the day Realmac was small enough to make changes and respond with great fixes for SEO issues as well as others. Rapidweaver still has many issues with SEO but that is not all their fault. RMS has turned into a company pursuing money as any business should. As a result they cannot work on and implement things that have little "user perceived" impact.
SEO is in demand but is not understood so it gets shoved low down the list.
I still watch this forum often, hoping for a big change, that's my frustration and my negativity in the forums. I realized I was being tough on something that may only matter to me. Consequently I have moved on.
The forums have changed for very understandable reasons that several people have already described above. Money changes things: so most of the resulting "lack of community" feel is pretty normal given how the RW community has shifted over the years.
I'd like to make a simple proposal: why not add on a Reviews area? Currently when RW users enter the forums these days it's a bit akin to driving into Las Vegas (and that's not a good thing)! We are bombarded with hype and hyperbole. I don't see this going away, and I'm not suggesting we get rid of announcements (they serve a very good purpose) or RMS losing a good revenue stream by developers paying to display ads. Instead I'm simply suggesting we enter the 21st Century. Amazon does it, BH Photo Video does it, and several other places do it successfully: allow and encourage actual users to post reviews.
A review should be considerate but also critical. Right now developers get a "free pass" since users really don't have enough information (at times) to make the best informed decisions for their situation. User-created reviews would help this situation. Currently the forums are not very "friendly" to the end user in terms of helping them make critical buying decisions. How many of us have found a product, or developer, wanting? But we said nothing. How many of us have found a product, or developer, extraordinary? But we said nothing. User reviews would be much more informative than the marketing-overhype that comes from developers these days. I'm not blaming the developers for the hype, I'm simply asking for some balance. Allow real users to contribute their experiences.
When I think about buying many products these days I rely partially-to-mostly on the collective wisdom of users at other sites. I have no such help in these forums.
I think we can be civil by posting/commenting on reviews. We can create a much "kinder" environment (one that is specifically kind to the end user). So what do the forum moderators say? Can we make it happen?
Makes sense, I suppose. I hope that the accuracy of reviews would be better than it is on Amazon or the Mac App store, though. So many people complain about things which wouldn't be a problem if they just read the manual or used a little common sense.
”
1. The upgrade to RW 5, was an unmitigated disaster, for numerous reasons (most of which have now been resolved). However, the stigma remains and problems with publishing, are scatter gunned at all and everyone. Stacks developers, for example, become incensed when they feel unjustly blamed (understandably so).
2. The upgrade to Lion, was problematical, and required some “housekeeping”, to solve “crashes” with RW, that were not necessary for other products. I upgraded to Office 2011, for example, which worked fine without any problems whatsoever – but I had to reset permissions to get RW to work.
With all due respect, I never experienced these issues because I didn't upgrade to RW5 or Lion as soon as they were available. In fact, I'm still using Snow Leopard. I'm not excusing the problems, just pointing out no one was forced to upgrade.
I’d like to make a simple proposal: why not add on a Reviews area? ...
A review should be considerate but also critical. Right now developers get a “free pass” since users really don’t have enough information (at times) to make the best informed decisions for their situation. User-created reviews would help this situation.
I'm not "sold" on, or against, a "Review" type forum.
My general feeling is that all things, in one way or another, are biased (to an extent).
The "key" is to ask questions. Here's a post/thread that reflects just that - see here.
I provided enough information on the "available" options that the user could review. Then another Forum member posed another option.
I was well aware of the option that was posed and well aware that that option was still in "beta". I also knew that you had to "buy in" to that "beta". Hence, I didn't recommend.
The key, as I see it, is when a Forum member posts about "what should I use", "how do I do this", "I need help with..." they need to ensure that they "monitor" and "moderate" that post. Here's an example in the Stacks Chat Forum.
What typically happens is that folks post and never monitor their post. What was top of list when you posted can quickly move to "page 2" or even "page 3" depending on the Forum traffic. An in today's world of "partial attention" and the "one eye one thumb" approach of mobile platforms. Folks don't dig past page 1.
The main problem at the moment, I think, is that once someone has announced a product, it attracts comments which clog up the announcements section. We're all guilty - well most of us - but it would be much better if we could put our comments and queries in the relevant section such as stacks chat and have the sort of useful and informed debate you mention.
And, as you say, it is important that people monitor the threads they have spawned and I wonder if the present mechanism could be tweaked. At the moment, if one fails to follow the link in the notification email, one ceases to receive notifications with the result that one may forget about the thread altogether. The thread goes on oblivious to the contributor's growing indifference! Couldn't the notifications go on until you specifically request that they stop? I receive several hundred emails a day and it is quite easy to miss one notification.
I have not been on these forums for a while mainly due to other commitments but I think this may put me in a unique situation for me to add to this debate.
Firstly I am aware that some people have caused antagonism in the past with their posts but disagreements is nothing new on this forum - we have had this in the past and usually people have been sensible enough to be civil and respectful to everyone. What I have found since coming back to these forums with "fresh eyes" is that anyone new who comes here is immediately confused about the various forums and the number of stickies that seem to be still hanging around. I also find it very strange that this post has been posted in the Announcements part of the forum when it should have been posted in the Rapidweaver part of the forum - however my suspicion is that it was done because everyone comes here so it has the widest possible viewing. I do think the forums need complete updating and possibly overhauling and should be a lot slicker.
As for developers wanting not to air any problems on this forum then some people should think and ask the question what it is we exactly want from them? They have upped the ante and are acting in a professional way and I for one am perfectly happy to use their own support systems if that is how they see fit to run their businesses. If I am not happy with them or what has been sold then I would tell them or if necessary post on this forum for everyone to see - in the past I have done this with some developers. Don't forget you the customer hold the biggest cards and any bad publicity could mean a real problem for them. I also don't see why developers cannot use the Announcements part of the forum as it was intended, after all not everyone has signed up or subscribed to their newsletter or whatever. In fact I like a fair number of people on this forum look at the Announcements to see if there are any goodies which I may have missed.
As for having a Review site this has already been tried before with Vasily putting together a RW Reviews site where people could go and carry out their own reviews for themes, plug-ins and stacks. He and I spent some considerable time uploading quite a number of these so that people could go and review them but after a while no-one went and this is no longer available. So if there was to be another Review site then be prepared for a lot of work and not many people going to the site.
Finally may I wish everyone a Happy New Year.
Regards
Norman
Evocator Forum Member with over 1650 posts on the previous forum
Its me, my mac and your money - thats a good combination!!
What I have found since coming back to these forums with “fresh eyes” is that anyone new who comes here is immediately confused about the various forums and the number of stickies that seem to be still hanging around.
I'm not sure about a "redesign" but the "subtitles" of the various "subsections" should be reviewed and modified to "simplify" the question "Where should I post?"
For example the Stacks Chat Forum.Which is subtitled as "A place to discuss all things regarding YourHead Stacks." The YourHead Stacks is a PlugIn. And discussion about that PlugIn should be directed to the "3rd Party PlugIn Support" subsection.
The "Stacks Chat Forum" should be about 3rd Party stacks created by 3rd Party Developer's like Weaver Add-Ons, seyDesign, Joe Workman, etc.
We can't go back but we can bring the best of the past into the now and future forum.
Yes, there have been issues with RW5, third party products, support and "words" between users".
The transition to RW5 and Stacks 2 have not been perfect in some areas. But excellent in other areas. Stacks 2 itself is not an issue. It's brilliant IMHO.
With a growing platform it is normal to have a range of quality in third party support, products and interactions. There is no way to truly police all. Personal integrity plays a part in how a Dev supports their product and even how users interact on this Forum. Not everyone plays nice. Yet in spite of all we have talked about and experience in the last year there is so much good too. RW5 is working well. A few things still to work on like CSS Consolidation. Stacks 2 has opened up a lot of new possibilities. This Forum remains a great place and is now just one of the places folks get support and not the only as it was in days past.
A review area is a double edged sward. It can have very helpful and useful reviews. It can also have rants and trash talk by frustrated users. Reviews would have to be taken with a "grain of salt" (or 2 or 3). Some users will later say "my bad, my problem". There is the ever pervasive issue of RTFM! Not all will. Others will after the fact and after complaining.
But a review area should be considered and the good, the bad and the ugly looked at before starting.
My goal here was to take the best of the past and bring them strongly into the present and future. Also to bring the elephant in the room to the fore. Clear the air and move forward.
Things will never be perfect. People will still get frustrated.
But we can and should improve on a good things.
We know what has happened and gone over it.
The question now is, how will will go forward? How do we make this even a better and more useful place? Minimize the negative and extenuate the positive? Make constructive criticism the norm and not rants?
It's certainly not up to me, but rather the community.
I'm not sure about a "redesign" but the "subtitles" of the various "subsections" should be reviewed and modified to "simplify" the question "Where should I post?"
I think a lot of the fat could be trimmed. chat this, chat that, 3rd party this, 3rd party that, Development this, development that, html help, questions, requests, tips, tricks... It boggles the mind!
Certainly fodder for another post all together, but how about simply...
Announcements (Official and 3rd party announcements. No pre-announcements please!)
RapidWeaver Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Plugin Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Stacks Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Theme Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Developer Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
I'm not sure about a "redesign" but the "subtitles" of the various "subsections" should be reviewed and modified to "simplify" the question "Where should I post?"
I think a lot of the fat could be trimmed. chat this, chat that, 3rd party this, 3rd party that, Development this, development that, html help, questions, requests, tips, tricks... It boggles the mind!
Certainly fodder for another post all together, but how about simply...
Announcements (Official and 3rd party announcements. No pre-announcements please!)
RapidWeaver Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Plugin Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Stacks Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Theme Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Developer Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Announcements -> no comments or feedback needed, so disable it.
RapidWeaver Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Plugin & Stacks Questions -> plugins will fade away because stacks are implementing them
Theme Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Developer Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
This is a great thread and I wholeheartedly support the desire to bring back the positive/helpful nature of this forum as so many have already expressed above.
I agree with Gille that the comments should just be disabled in the Announcements forum. Allow the originator of the post to add updates to their post if needed, but disable the comments from other users. As developers do updates, then they should be able to add an update to their post and get it bumped up to the top of the Announcement forum. That would make the most sense to me as a RW user. What I dislike most about the Announcement forum currently is that a really old announcement can get bumped up to the top by just a user say "This is a great stack. Thanks."
Then in each announcement, the developers can include their preferred support method(s). In the case of developers who don't spend a lot of time here in the forums, they should clearly state where users should go to get the best/fastest support for their products. Perhaps this information could be added into their signature (not sure if there is enough room in there for them anymore, but I do know that could be modified to allow for more room).
Many thanks for your measured and interesting response to my posting. I agree with Larry, this has been a most interesting discussion and I have learned (or had clarified) a number of “apocryphal” topics/issues.
1. I introduced Lion into the discussion, without too much conviction, except to say that after every beta release from 5.0 to 5.2 I’ve had to reset permissions to stop either a crash or the dreaded spinning beachball. But on reflection many of these resets were under Snow Leopard. A recent posting on the Apple Store stated that after reloading Lion RW worked fine – so who really knows – certainly not me. The logs in reset permissions actually told me nothing.
2. Was most amused by your description of the “Wild West”. I’ve only recently appreciated how many early stacks were lacking in originality. I improved the graphics myself in several early stacks but didn’t dare offer them up to anyone for fear of infringing their IPR. I think it is improbable that we will see another Wild West, judging by the quality and complexity of the new stacks being released (egs CSVs & SQLs).
3. I do feel for the very new users who report crashes with RW only days after spending £50 plus on a purchase. RMS should pay particular attention to these and “harden” the product – old timers like us just work around them. And, yes, I can still get the spinning ball. I have recently built nearly 40 Media Stacks, each one of which I load separately and then test them on a Stacks page. Without exception, RW hangs on the FIRST startup. When I Force Quit and reload all works well. I don’t report these as they would only end up on the RMS “list of to-dos”.
4. With reference to playing about with themes. I didn’t intend it to come across as “negativity” on the forums. I never have the slightest problem with any of your themes, but do follow the many comments posted to you (I get all the emails as I’m signed up), and certainly admire your patience. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the impression I get, is that the majority of problems are user generated and some from mucking around with your code.
5. I am aware of the “agnosticism” of RW HTML & CSS, as in learning CSS3 I built my own theme from the RMS blank (Not fit for the market place I hasten to add – but I did learn a lot). Your explanation, I hope, will be most useful, coming from you and plug, very nicely, an “excuse” response.
6. My point concerning Stacks updates, are they (the old ones) are still being offered for sale, and the very least I would have expected, was a “grouping” update. I’ve done all of mine myself but did get a wrap on the forums for suggesting it. I’ve privately told a lot of people how to do it, but kept it off of the forums to avoid further rebukes.
7. Developer rivalry. There was one aired in the last few weeks – I understand why but don’t wish to comment as I’m a fan of both concerned – and would not want to be banned for either shops.
8. I would like to qualify the “sales” statement I made as Gary has already put me in my place – to “Initially many users may purchase products from the Announcements”. I most certainly used to, but now get emails from most developers before I see the forums.
9. I submit to your points concerning themes and various versions of RW. My contretemps, was concerned with CSS Consolidation. I know the benefits of consolidation with large sites as I’ve measured the difference. I would not have made my purchase, though, had this point been clearly marked on the tin. I’m not convinced (yet) that Consolidation speeds up site downloads – would be interested in further thoughts from the experts. My remaining question is “If you can code round this problem – why can’t others”. A hypothetical question really.
Finally – I’m still in the fold and always open to purchasing new stuff. My only plea is for RMS to decimate their list of “To Dos” in the next iteration.
Nothing to do with RW, but had to smile over your Photoshop comment. I persuaded my daughter-in-law, who is a very keen photographer to buy PS CS5. After my extensive library of Photoshop books was removed on an almost permanent loan, I had to pay for a subscription (for her) to lynda.com to get them back.
4. With reference to playing about with themes... the majority of problems are user generated and some from mucking around with your code.
I think that was likely true in the recent past. I think it's less the case now as I have a feeling that many more people are resorting to using Page Inspector ] Header ] CSS thanks in large part to the repetition of that mantra. But yeah, the bulk of support, historically, was people messing about with the innards of a theme to complex for most.
on 1325812538:
6. My point concerning Stacks updates, are they (the old ones) are still being offered for sale, and the very least I would have expected, was a “grouping” update.
But why? I have two stacks, ZipBar and ZipList, that have yet to have the grouping feature added (though I'm in that process now). I have no intention of removing them for sale simply because the lack this feature.
I think you are perhaps applying too much weight to that one feature. It's handy yes, but has absolutely no bearing at all on the functionality of the stack. A lot of developers like to add value to an update, like bug fixes, new functionality and what not. An update simply for the sake of an update is disruptive to the end user if the update provides nothing of tangible benefit.
If on the other hand a stack ceased to work from version 1.4 to version 2, then yes I think an update is in order with all the bells and whistles. Otherwise, once there is good enough reason to disrupt the end users workflow with an update, I see no reason why the customer should be bothered with something as trivial as grouping.
But that's just me.
on 1325812538:
7. Developer rivalry. There was one aired in the last few weeks...
Oh stink, did I miss a good one? I always miss the good ones.
on 1325812538:
9. My remaining question is “If you can code round this problem – why can’t others”. A hypothetical question really.
It's a funny little way in how the feature actually works. It relies heavily on the order of the style sheets, the format of the resource links and where all the resources are placed. I lucked out with the way my themes were made and was able to overcome most problems early on in RW 5.0. But I'm not entirely immune to the problem either. My photo gallery pages won't work with CSS consolidation.
And thanks for the input you've provided throughout this thread. I would like to address one point...
3. I do feel for the very new users who report crashes with RW only days after spending £50 plus on a purchase. RMS should pay particular attention to these and “harden” the product...
I believe that RMS does listen. And, if they don't they surely should. But I also believe it's clear on the Forum Homepage about how those issues get resolved. RMS has included just above the start of the actual Forum areas with this...
RapidWeaver User Forum The RapidWeaver Community Forums are home to all non-technical support discussions.
...in my opinion that clearly says that if I'm experiencing an issue with RapidWeaver, RMS has a prescribed way for me to address that with them. And that way is via their support "mechanism".
As a community we can attempt to answer those posts with things like "Are your 3rd Party PlugIns all up to date". Due to the open API that RMS allows this can account for a number of issues. And if they, the end user, is sure that they are up to date, then we have a "responsibility" to point them in the right direction.
Although this link is about a Stack, I think it shows the power of communicating with the developer when "issues" arise.See here.
Grouping Stacks - well that was a right ticking off. I shall never, never, never, ever mention the subject again. I'm sorry to say I grouped your Zipbar & Ziplist under a functional group, so I guess the update from you will sort me out again.
Of course - you are absolutely right about the route to RMS. I still see postings about crashes on these forums, but seldom any responses to the resolution. Call me naive, but its still not good for crashes to still be occurring straight out of the box, especially since the new user is unlikely to have done little more than give RW a whirl.
I can't recall any other Mac software that crashed so soon, in use, (Windows - yes), for new users, so I guess my appeal is to RMS, to "idiot proof" RW a little more for beginners (no offense meant to anyone) - if only in their own interests.
I'm glad that I've never experienced any issues with RW "out of the box".
My issues tend to occur from out-dated 3rd Party Add-Ons. I've become a person of "Hey, when did I use you last?" & "Obviously not enough to keep you active."
Not to say that I just "trash" them, I just set them aside elsewhere, just in case.
Overall my experience with RW and the RMS Team has been very enjoyable.
Comments
I think for the most part it's not that the developers want to hide something, or the developer thinks they have a better system in place, etc... It's usually just a matter of how a developer can serve you best (fastest).
As developers we have to have eyes on our support systems first and foremost, as that's usually (not always) the first place the paying customer goes when they have a problem. That's the place where their needs will be addressed the fastest.
After we have addressed the needs in our own systems we all try and keep our ears on the forum, twitter, Facebook, etc.. It's not that these streams are secondary or unimportant to our own support systems, it's just that they're just not focussed enough to be efficient channels of support. Dozens of threads could go through these forums each hour and not one of them concerning a particular developers wares.
So when we stumble across a thread that's maybe a few days (or weeks) old with that person looking for support, we'll answer the thread then and there but always suggest that future support be directed to places where our focus lies.
Nobody wants to force you to use another system, and by all means keep using these forums for third party support if that's what you're most comfortable with, just keep in mind that it may take longer then it would elsewhere.
Thanks Adam. In the 'old' days, the developers were able to keep a closer eye on these forums. Times have changed, the user-base is much larger and I understand that the developer's time is probably best spent monitoring their own boards, help desks, etc. I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm also perfectly fine if my questions on the RW boards go unanswered (they do, sometimes) - or if other users (not the devs) help me out.
My issue reflects what Brian mentioned earlier - devs who strongly suggest (or demand) that all questions/issues be submitted via a different site other then this forum. Some have done so in order to weed out the vague questions - but others have done so (I believe) to avoid public disclosure of any problems with their products. I was burned in this fashion (no names) when a product I purchased didn't/wouldn't work with my hosting company. At the time, the dev did not have any sort of disclosure on his site - but I later came to find out that he knew it wouldn't work with at least one host provider (mine) before I purchased it. I was instructed to take the thread off-line (which I did) - and basically told to take it up with my provider. Since that episode, I've noted on several occasions where devs insist that 'issues' be directed elsewhere.
Very best,
Dave
PS - Working with a wonderful tech at my provider, I was able to find a solution to the problem. I've since PMed several other RW users with the solution (but, sadly, not the developer who treated me rudely and, I believe, unfairly).
Tom was "The Man" and I learned from him. I owe him much for my good start here.
I hoped he would return for a few years but finally let that go.
We can't return to those days or remake them. But we can do all possible to ensure civil and helpful conversations.
Just as Tom would have wanted.
Inside Rapidweaver - Books, Themes and More...
It's certainly plausible with any software that relies on 3rd party contributors (which was the leading cause of troubles in your first point).
This kind of hits on the the growing pains of RapidWeaver development as a whole. In 2005 none of us knew much of anything. That was "ok" back then, it was the wild west of RapidWeaver, things were simple, the user base small. After a few years an unspoken standard grew, developers respected each others realms (themes vs plugins) to avoid code conflicts and ensure compliant sites.
When Stacks 1 was launched the developmental bar started out very low with nearly no barrier to entry. Anyone who could pull a code snippet off the web could make a stack.
It was the wild west of RapidWeaver all over again and it took a bit to reign in some developmental standards. A few point releases into Stacks 1 and developers had to know a bit more, take more care and have a common respect for the environment that they were throwing code into.
Yes, this is true. Though I don't see how this contributes to negativity on the forum.
On the contrary, HTML5 is not as strict as the officially supported XHTML spec. End tags, just as in previous iterations of the HTML spec, are not necessary in HTML5, only in XHTML.
But this has nothing to do with RW5 and or Stacks 2. RW5 officially supports XHTML but is more or less DOCTYPE agnostic as long as the Tidied/Optimized options are left alone. And as for Stacks 2, it's completely DOCTYPE agnostic and could care less what spec was used.
If you're being told that there are issues concerning XHTML vs HTML then it's possible that either party may not fully understand the problem and/or the answer.
Very true.
And I estimate that 100% of all 2004 Pontiac Montana's that did not come equipped with side airbags will not get said side airbags by the time they reach the end of their functional lives.
Maybe I've never understood the relevance or the impact of this argument but I just don't see what you're getting at. I never have.
Sure, old stacks can have new grouping features added, and I'm sure over time that most will, but apart from that, what are old stacks missing that makes this such a travesty? And what does this contribute to forum negativity?
Developer vs developer? Developers are pretty friendly and like to help each other out. There have been some arguments in the past, but in the end they are always worked out amicably and usually with a renewed sense of camaraderie and work ethic thereafter.
True we are allowed to market our wares here (free) but by no means is this where the majority of our sales come from. This is usually the last channel we announce our wares on and do so mainly as a service to those who prefer this stream of information.
I'm not bothered by founded criticisms here provided that it's rooted in fact (or best understanding) and not some personal agenda.
This is not true. Any theme made for RapidWeaver 3.6 of beyond will still work in RapidWeaver 5.x today. Trust me, I know.
The only "new functionality" in RapidWeaver 5.x capable of rendering a theme useless is CSS consolidation. This is no fault of the theme or it's developer but a bug in the process within RapidWeaver. CSS consolidation can crush some themes worse then others or have no effect at all. It's a work in progress and RMS has made strides to get this feature working properly for all themes.
The only other feature (not new) that can have similar devastating effects on a theme is the Tidied/Optimized function when used with an HTML5 theme. This is a conscious choice by many theme developers, as some feel it's necessary to push RapidWeaver forward and keep pace with current trends and standards. But this would be true no matter which version of RapidWeaver is in use.
Anyhow, in closing, some good points worth keeping in mind.
From the previous thread by Ken I actually had an interesting and very plesant email exchange with him just before Christmas. I too have been 'burned' by Dev's but I generally say nothing and just remember never to buy from them again. Also, there is quite a few Dev's out there who's store's are still open yet there is a disclaimer saying "Does not work with RW 5" (at least there is a disclaimer) or other's who's copyright notice has not been updated sine 2009.
I think it is impossible to turn back the clock and as Ken point's out the landscape now is much more complex than in RW 3.0/4.0 day's. Theme's are much more complex because that's what the people wanted. Stack's 2.0 blow's the lid of RW and as a result it has become more complex.
Think of Photoshop... If you have been using Photoshop since the early day's 1.0/2.0/3.0... you will have grown with the product and as the new features were added you will quickly have grasped them and added these tools to your workflow. Now think of somebody starting out with CS5.5!! It's so flipping complex that you need a 2 week training course to get through the most common functions.
RW is evolving, the web is evolving and standards are evolving, consequently new level's of complexity are introduced and along the way there is a few bump's in the road.
However, generally bad mouthing developers is not good as it bring's the general perception of the developers down and effect's the RW community as a whole. There are several developers who, if I could prove they knowingly cheated me I would have no problem with dragging them down into the mud, but without proof I say noting, do not recommend there products and never buy from them again.
On the other hand there is many developers who go the extra mile and quite a bit more, (Adam Merrifield with his excellent Google group and Will Woodgate) and I know everybody has there favorites who they have build up a relationship with over time. So, it's not all doom and gloom.
For one, I like mad Ken I just think he's misunderstood because I know understand exactly what's he's talking about.
Play I did. I used my growing code knowledge mixed with my marketing skills to create RapidWeaverSEO.com I found out that there was a need back then. Now the message of "content sells" and "proper site structure" is important and is taken for granted.
Back in the day Realmac was small enough to make changes and respond with great fixes for SEO issues as well as others. Rapidweaver still has many issues with SEO but that is not all their fault. RMS has turned into a company pursuing money as any business should. As a result they cannot work on and implement things that have little "user perceived" impact.
SEO is in demand but is not understood so it gets shoved low down the list.
I still watch this forum often, hoping for a big change, that's my frustration and my negativity in the forums. I realized I was being tough on something that may only matter to me. Consequently I have moved on.
Larry, thanks for the ride down Memory Lane.
All the best!
I'd like to make a simple proposal: why not add on a Reviews area? Currently when RW users enter the forums these days it's a bit akin to driving into Las Vegas (and that's not a good thing)! We are bombarded with hype and hyperbole. I don't see this going away, and I'm not suggesting we get rid of announcements (they serve a very good purpose) or RMS losing a good revenue stream by developers paying to display ads. Instead I'm simply suggesting we enter the 21st Century. Amazon does it, BH Photo Video does it, and several other places do it successfully: allow and encourage actual users to post reviews.
A review should be considerate but also critical. Right now developers get a "free pass" since users really don't have enough information (at times) to make the best informed decisions for their situation. User-created reviews would help this situation. Currently the forums are not very "friendly" to the end user in terms of helping them make critical buying decisions. How many of us have found a product, or developer, wanting? But we said nothing. How many of us have found a product, or developer, extraordinary? But we said nothing. User reviews would be much more informative than the marketing-overhype that comes from developers these days. I'm not blaming the developers for the hype, I'm simply asking for some balance. Allow real users to contribute their experiences.
When I think about buying many products these days I rely partially-to-mostly on the collective wisdom of users at other sites. I have no such help in these forums.
I think we can be civil by posting/commenting on reviews. We can create a much "kinder" environment (one that is specifically kind to the end user). So what do the forum moderators say? Can we make it happen?
http://www.stackscenter.com
RwGrid - Rapidweaver Website Showcase
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With all due respect, I never experienced these issues because I didn't upgrade to RW5 or Lion as soon as they were available. In fact, I'm still using Snow Leopard. I'm not excusing the problems, just pointing out no one was forced to upgrade.
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My general feeling is that all things, in one way or another, are biased (to an extent).
The "key" is to ask questions. Here's a post/thread that reflects just that - see here.
I provided enough information on the "available" options that the user could review. Then another Forum member posed another option.
I was well aware of the option that was posed and well aware that that option was still in "beta". I also knew that you had to "buy in" to that "beta". Hence, I didn't recommend.
The key, as I see it, is when a Forum member posts about "what should I use", "how do I do this", "I need help with..." they need to ensure that they "monitor" and "moderate" that post. Here's an example in the Stacks Chat Forum.
What typically happens is that folks post and never monitor their post. What was top of list when you posted can quickly move to "page 2" or even "page 3" depending on the Forum traffic. An in today's world of "partial attention" and the "one eye one thumb" approach of mobile platforms. Folks don't dig past page 1.
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The main problem at the moment, I think, is that once someone has announced a product, it attracts comments which clog up the announcements section. We're all guilty - well most of us - but it would be much better if we could put our comments and queries in the relevant section such as stacks chat and have the sort of useful and informed debate you mention.
And, as you say, it is important that people monitor the threads they have spawned and I wonder if the present mechanism could be tweaked. At the moment, if one fails to follow the link in the notification email, one ceases to receive notifications with the result that one may forget about the thread altogether. The thread goes on oblivious to the contributor's growing indifference! Couldn't the notifications go on until you specifically request that they stop? I receive several hundred emails a day and it is quite easy to miss one notification.
Firstly I am aware that some people have caused antagonism in the past with their posts but disagreements is nothing new on this forum - we have had this in the past and usually people have been sensible enough to be civil and respectful to everyone. What I have found since coming back to these forums with "fresh eyes" is that anyone new who comes here is immediately confused about the various forums and the number of stickies that seem to be still hanging around. I also find it very strange that this post has been posted in the Announcements part of the forum when it should have been posted in the Rapidweaver part of the forum - however my suspicion is that it was done because everyone comes here so it has the widest possible viewing. I do think the forums need complete updating and possibly overhauling and should be a lot slicker.
As for developers wanting not to air any problems on this forum then some people should think and ask the question what it is we exactly want from them? They have upped the ante and are acting in a professional way and I for one am perfectly happy to use their own support systems if that is how they see fit to run their businesses. If I am not happy with them or what has been sold then I would tell them or if necessary post on this forum for everyone to see - in the past I have done this with some developers. Don't forget you the customer hold the biggest cards and any bad publicity could mean a real problem for them. I also don't see why developers cannot use the Announcements part of the forum as it was intended, after all not everyone has signed up or subscribed to their newsletter or whatever. In fact I like a fair number of people on this forum look at the Announcements to see if there are any goodies which I may have missed.
As for having a Review site this has already been tried before with Vasily putting together a RW Reviews site where people could go and carry out their own reviews for themes, plug-ins and stacks. He and I spent some considerable time uploading quite a number of these so that people could go and review them but after a while no-one went and this is no longer available. So if there was to be another Review site then be prepared for a lot of work and not many people going to the site.
Finally may I wish everyone a Happy New Year.
Regards
Norman
Its me, my mac and your money - thats a good combination!!
Nice point...
I'm not sure about a "redesign" but the "subtitles" of the various "subsections" should be reviewed and modified to "simplify" the question "Where should I post?"
For example the Stacks Chat Forum.Which is subtitled as "A place to discuss all things regarding YourHead Stacks." The YourHead Stacks is a PlugIn. And discussion about that PlugIn should be directed to the "3rd Party PlugIn Support" subsection.
The "Stacks Chat Forum" should be about 3rd Party stacks created by 3rd Party Developer's like Weaver Add-Ons, seyDesign, Joe Workman, etc.
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We can't go back but we can bring the best of the past into the now and future forum.
Yes, there have been issues with RW5, third party products, support and "words" between users".
The transition to RW5 and Stacks 2 have not been perfect in some areas. But excellent in other areas. Stacks 2 itself is not an issue. It's brilliant IMHO.
With a growing platform it is normal to have a range of quality in third party support, products and interactions. There is no way to truly police all. Personal integrity plays a part in how a Dev supports their product and even how users interact on this Forum. Not everyone plays nice. Yet in spite of all we have talked about and experience in the last year there is so much good too. RW5 is working well. A few things still to work on like CSS Consolidation. Stacks 2 has opened up a lot of new possibilities. This Forum remains a great place and is now just one of the places folks get support and not the only as it was in days past.
A review area is a double edged sward. It can have very helpful and useful reviews. It can also have rants and trash talk by frustrated users. Reviews would have to be taken with a "grain of salt" (or 2 or 3). Some users will later say "my bad, my problem". There is the ever pervasive issue of RTFM! Not all will. Others will after the fact and after complaining.
But a review area should be considered and the good, the bad and the ugly looked at before starting.
My goal here was to take the best of the past and bring them strongly into the present and future. Also to bring the elephant in the room to the fore. Clear the air and move forward.
Things will never be perfect. People will still get frustrated.
But we can and should improve on a good things.
We know what has happened and gone over it.
The question now is, how will will go forward? How do we make this even a better and more useful place? Minimize the negative and extenuate the positive? Make constructive criticism the norm and not rants?
It's certainly not up to me, but rather the community.
Inside Rapidweaver - Books, Themes and More...
Certainly fodder for another post all together, but how about simply...
Announcements (Official and 3rd party announcements. No pre-announcements please!)
RapidWeaver Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Plugin Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Stacks Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Theme Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Developer Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Nik and Dan are monitoring this. Helpful ideas.
Inside Rapidweaver - Books, Themes and More...
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Trimmed version of Seyd. :
Announcements -> no comments or feedback needed, so disable it.
RapidWeaver Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Plugin & Stacks Questions -> plugins will fade away because stacks are implementing them
Theme Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
Developer Questions (Asked, answered, tips tricks and requests)
http://www.stackscenter.com
RwGrid - Rapidweaver Website Showcase
http://www.rwgrid.com
I agree with Gille that the comments should just be disabled in the Announcements forum. Allow the originator of the post to add updates to their post if needed, but disable the comments from other users. As developers do updates, then they should be able to add an update to their post and get it bumped up to the top of the Announcement forum. That would make the most sense to me as a RW user. What I dislike most about the Announcement forum currently is that a really old announcement can get bumped up to the top by just a user say "This is a great stack. Thanks."
Then in each announcement, the developers can include their preferred support method(s). In the case of developers who don't spend a lot of time here in the forums, they should clearly state where users should go to get the best/fastest support for their products. Perhaps this information could be added into their signature (not sure if there is enough room in there for them anymore, but I do know that could be modified to allow for more room).
Just my 2 cents.
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fine to me too if "Announcements" gets also renamed to "Advertising" =:-p
Edit: "Shopping advices" is the italian euphemism for ads. If Advertising doesn't sound good as a Forum section, maybe...
paolosavonuzzi.org
Many thanks for your measured and interesting response to my posting. I agree with Larry, this has been a most interesting discussion and I have learned (or had clarified) a number of “apocryphal” topics/issues.
1. I introduced Lion into the discussion, without too much conviction, except to say that after every beta release from 5.0 to 5.2 I’ve had to reset permissions to stop either a crash or the dreaded spinning beachball. But on reflection many of these resets were under Snow Leopard. A recent posting on the Apple Store stated that after reloading Lion RW worked fine – so who really knows – certainly not me. The logs in reset permissions actually told me nothing.
2. Was most amused by your description of the “Wild West”. I’ve only recently appreciated how many early stacks were lacking in originality. I improved the graphics myself in several early stacks but didn’t dare offer them up to anyone for fear of infringing their IPR. I think it is improbable that we will see another Wild West, judging by the quality and complexity of the new stacks being released (egs CSVs & SQLs).
3. I do feel for the very new users who report crashes with RW only days after spending £50 plus on a purchase. RMS should pay particular attention to these and “harden” the product – old timers like us just work around them. And, yes, I can still get the spinning ball. I have recently built nearly 40 Media Stacks, each one of which I load separately and then test them on a Stacks page. Without exception, RW hangs on the FIRST startup. When I Force Quit and reload all works well. I don’t report these as they would only end up on the RMS “list of to-dos”.
4. With reference to playing about with themes. I didn’t intend it to come across as “negativity” on the forums. I never have the slightest problem with any of your themes, but do follow the many comments posted to you (I get all the emails as I’m signed up), and certainly admire your patience. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the impression I get, is that the majority of problems are user generated and some from mucking around with your code.
5. I am aware of the “agnosticism” of RW HTML & CSS, as in learning CSS3 I built my own theme from the RMS blank (Not fit for the market place I hasten to add – but I did learn a lot). Your explanation, I hope, will be most useful, coming from you and plug, very nicely, an “excuse” response.
6. My point concerning Stacks updates, are they (the old ones) are still being offered for sale, and the very least I would have expected, was a “grouping” update. I’ve done all of mine myself but did get a wrap on the forums for suggesting it. I’ve privately told a lot of people how to do it, but kept it off of the forums to avoid further rebukes.
7. Developer rivalry. There was one aired in the last few weeks – I understand why but don’t wish to comment as I’m a fan of both concerned – and would not want to be banned for either shops.
8. I would like to qualify the “sales” statement I made as Gary has already put me in my place – to “Initially many users may purchase products from the Announcements”. I most certainly used to, but now get emails from most developers before I see the forums.
9. I submit to your points concerning themes and various versions of RW. My contretemps, was concerned with CSS Consolidation. I know the benefits of consolidation with large sites as I’ve measured the difference. I would not have made my purchase, though, had this point been clearly marked on the tin. I’m not convinced (yet) that Consolidation speeds up site downloads – would be interested in further thoughts from the experts. My remaining question is “If you can code round this problem – why can’t others”. A hypothetical question really.
Finally – I’m still in the fold and always open to purchasing new stuff. My only plea is for RMS to decimate their list of “To Dos” in the next iteration.
Regards
Ken
Nothing to do with RW, but had to smile over your Photoshop comment. I persuaded my daughter-in-law, who is a very keen photographer to buy PS CS5. After my extensive library of Photoshop books was removed on an almost permanent loan, I had to pay for a subscription (for her) to lynda.com to get them back.
Regards
Ken
But why? I have two stacks, ZipBar and ZipList, that have yet to have the grouping feature added (though I'm in that process now). I have no intention of removing them for sale simply because the lack this feature.
I think you are perhaps applying too much weight to that one feature. It's handy yes, but has absolutely no bearing at all on the functionality of the stack. A lot of developers like to add value to an update, like bug fixes, new functionality and what not. An update simply for the sake of an update is disruptive to the end user if the update provides nothing of tangible benefit.
If on the other hand a stack ceased to work from version 1.4 to version 2, then yes I think an update is in order with all the bells and whistles. Otherwise, once there is good enough reason to disrupt the end users workflow with an update, I see no reason why the customer should be bothered with something as trivial as grouping.
But that's just me.
Oh stink, did I miss a good one? I always miss the good ones.
It's a funny little way in how the feature actually works. It relies heavily on the order of the style sheets, the format of the resource links and where all the resources are placed. I lucked out with the way my themes were made and was able to overcome most problems early on in RW 5.0. But I'm not entirely immune to the problem either. My photo gallery pages won't work with CSS consolidation.
And thanks for the input you've provided throughout this thread. I would like to address one point... I believe that RMS does listen. And, if they don't they surely should. But I also believe it's clear on the Forum Homepage about how those issues get resolved. RMS has included just above the start of the actual Forum areas with this... ...in my opinion that clearly says that if I'm experiencing an issue with RapidWeaver, RMS has a prescribed way for me to address that with them. And that way is via their support "mechanism".
As a community we can attempt to answer those posts with things like "Are your 3rd Party PlugIns all up to date". Due to the open API that RMS allows this can account for a number of issues. And if they, the end user, is sure that they are up to date, then we have a "responsibility" to point them in the right direction.
Although this link is about a Stack, I think it shows the power of communicating with the developer when "issues" arise.See here.
Thanks again.
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Grouping Stacks - well that was a right ticking off. I shall never, never, never, ever mention the subject again. I'm sorry to say I grouped your Zipbar & Ziplist under a functional group, so I guess the update from you will sort me out again.
Regards
Ken
Of course - you are absolutely right about the route to RMS. I still see postings about crashes on these forums, but seldom any responses to the resolution. Call me naive, but its still not good for crashes to still be occurring straight out of the box, especially since the new user is unlikely to have done little more than give RW a whirl.
I can't recall any other Mac software that crashed so soon, in use, (Windows - yes), for new users, so I guess my appeal is to RMS, to "idiot proof" RW a little more for beginners (no offense meant to anyone) - if only in their own interests.
Regards
Ken
I'm glad that I've never experienced any issues with RW "out of the box".
My issues tend to occur from out-dated 3rd Party Add-Ons. I've become a person of "Hey, when did I use you last?" & "Obviously not enough to keep you active."
Not to say that I just "trash" them, I just set them aside elsewhere, just in case.
Overall my experience with RW and the RMS Team has been very enjoyable.
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