About prices for the stuff we use in RW

Thanks for your reply. I’ve added explanations to some of the specific points you made. It wasn’t my intent to start a debate but to merely provide for consumers to perform informed price comparisons. Yes, stacks prices are generally increasing. While any price increase is displeasing, only by looking to external comparisons can you evaluate if those increases are with or without merit.

Shouldn’t Stacks cost more than a theme? More complex, more users, way wider support audience.

Yes. I think there’s high value in Stacks and Isaiah should probably charge more for it. The cost entry barrier to stacks that Rapidweaver adds – you need RW to use Stacks – imposes a price ceiling for Stacks. Stacks is a platform within a platform.

So why does a theme, or a stack, cost more than the RW base product or even the plugin class dependency which it’s built in? How does the ‘cost per use’ argument stand up there?

This is a bit similar to the prior question but requires a more nuanced answer. Stacks, like all software, benefits from marginal distribution costs. Isaiah develops Stacks once. That’s sunk cost. It doesn’t cost him a lot more to distribute it to 1,000 people than it does to distribute it to 10 people. As Isaiah adds more users the cost of each additional user added trends toward zero. Thus, the more people who use Stacks, the better the margin. Everyone who uses stacks has Stacks. Not everyone who uses Stacks will have Nick’s Photos 2 stack. Thus, stack developers need to make more per customer because they have fewer customers than Isaiah who has fewer customers than Realmac. As to why one stack might cost more than the other, that’s just features, complexity, developer reputation, and market demand.

I think there are many more RW/Stacks user producing awful-mediocre sites than anything that could be described as ‘boutique’ or customised. Yes, there are exceptions. Yes, there are artisans/craftspeople in this space who have real skills, but in the broad, have you SEEN some of the sites that are linked to in the forums when ppl ask for help? Hmmmm. Your use of ‘customised’ may be valid but but not always in a good way. Your use of ‘boutique’, and what it infers by way of expectation doesn’t land for me.

True. And this is true for more than just Stacks and stacks. Buying the best pair of football cleats does not make you the best football player. Since that’s true, are the cleats not worth the money in the marketplace to those professionals who might capitalize on their features? Or, should the cleats be cheaper because not all the people who use them are professional football players because they wear them. Surely, people are accountable for their capabilities within a practice.

Just do a search on this forum for the number of ‘Client wants …’ posts followed by recommendations of ‘have you tried…’, swiftly followed by “well, it does some of what I want but I can’t figure out how to get it to…”. Not my idea of boutique or ‘Truly custom’ …

Are you suggesting this is unique to Rapidweaver? If yes, I encourage you to visit other forums, be they Blocs, Wordpress, or Squarespace. In fact, you can find plenty of similar dialogue in Cloudflare, AWS, and Adobe forums. The condition you’re describing isn’t unique to any software or developer platform. It’s certainly not unique to Rapidweaver. But, I agree. If those other products deliver more capabilities for better prices, you should leverage those other products. Competition is great like that.

I’m not making the argument that anyone should choose one tool over another or trying to influence preference. I simply provided multiple examples evidencing that stacks prices aren’t out of line with competing products for Wordpress, Squarespace, Wix, or something else. That’s it.

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I’m quite happy with RW and the Stacks Community that supports it. I’ve made more building one site with it than all the software and stacks costs combined. If I need to tweak things using CSS, the resources are always there either online or on the forum. Joe Workman had always been quick to address issues and concerns. The Stack developers also supportive. I’ve had money refunded when I’ve accidentally bought a stack I didn’t understand or couldn’t get to work. Knowing how often the “front” end of the internet changes it’s browsers, APIs and interfaces, RW and Foundation are surprisingly resilient.

It seems to me that the cost can either be a bargain or expensive. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder…
Rapidweaver was a great experience for me as a Mac user. This forum alone was worth a great deal to me. I feel like Rapidweaver has outgrown me. That is my problem…

Thank you and all the best to all.

Hi John,

I do understand that for sure. With every update, I’m not always that quick to learn the new things.

It did seem easier at first. Maybe I was more enthused. I bought stacks that I never learned to use that well.

If I was in the middle of a project I didn’t want to spend the time. When things were slow, I wasn’t in the mood. Best case scenario was when a client would have a special request and I had to find a solution. Then that would get me inspired enough to learn the new stuff.

At a little over 70 years old, I’m more technically literate than most folks my age but the desire to always learn something new seems to wane.

Tim

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Interesting thread. A long-time RW user, I’ve lost count of how much I’ve spent/wasted on stacks, add-ons, themes, etc over the years. Playing around /experimenting when really I should’ve concentrated upon what I was wanting to achieve and ignore the rest. Which I’ve managed to do in recent years with a site that by fashionable standards is lacking and could do with an overhaul but which serves me well. So much so that I’ve yet to understand whether any benefit in my upgrading from RW7 let alone upgrading Stacks.

I very much doubt all the third-party developers have done as well out of RW as one might imagine: a few have, but the majority no. Personally, I’m not a fan of doing business with part-time developers, preferring to deal with full-timers, willing to commit to the risks in business. I used to buy from several developers but over the years have pruned and now only buy from Will Woodgate. I’ve also commissioned Will to design some stacks to my specification.

As for the price (cost?) of stacks, etc, some people live in what I call a Facebook sense of ‘entitlement’, aka the fastest growing mental defect. RW is a private sector business and the private sector is not an extension of social services. If a developer wants to charge $x and finds enough people buying to make it worthwhile to continue charging $x for other offerings, then what’s wrong with that? Inevitably at certain times of the year, Black Friday etc, the developer will have a sale in the hope of drumming up more custom. Whether it pays is of no consequence, it might just be to be seen to participate. Unless your business model is every day low pricing, inevitably there’ll be a time limit for buying at a lower price.

The snag with software is that it is dependent upon the operating system and in the case of RW upon the core product. The way Apple is heading, I guess it’s a job for small developers to keep up. Whether RW will continue indefinitely is also an issue.

Let’s face it, after the development costs have been recouped, the cost of software is next to nothing. The more the customer can be encouraged/persuaded to pay the more profit the developer can make. When I first got embroiled with RW and its third-party developer community, I was a ‘one born every minute’ type of customer but having learned to curb any tendency to chop and change for the sake of it I have moved on. Fortunately for developers, there is a steady stream of ones born every minute!

This is true, however the cost of supporting that software can be very high, sometimes much higher than the development cost over the life of the software.

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I’ll agree with you. I actually think the Stacks I’ve purchased are way cheap. I’m the low-level user.

So cheap, I really don’t like opening a ticket. I read the manuals and poke around the software and its features before I contact the developer. That developer’s time means money. And I’ve gotten pretty good support from all the Stacks I’ve bought. I’ll give Joe Workman 5 stars out of all of them.

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Hi Tim,

I turn 59 soon. I have the desire to learn but things don’t come to me as quickly as they did in my youth. I am impressed that you are still getting in the muck of learning.

I agree with you about my interest is waning in web development. 15 years ago I envisioned things getting easier. Things continue to get more difficult. On purpose I believe…

Owning a Mac has gotten a lot more expensive over the last 10 years. Hardware and software are both more costly. Thank you for writing…

Regards,
John

I agree… time is money. I also believe that good documentation is a must if you don’t want support issues. It is amazing what good instruction can do in the area of support. At one time I made a tutorial for including hype animations in a RW project. I was contacted by more than one about my tutorial. They were almost always about installing a stack… nothing to do with my tutorial.

I believe a developer should have documentation that will allow a brand new RapidWeaver customer to use it in a stand-alone fashion. Expecting to work with several other stacks on the same page is another matter.

In my limited experience and through developers I worked with, documenting the use of your products takes much longer than making your product. I am talking about Stacks not themes…

Rushing products to market without providing great documentation is one way to insure you will have more support issues. You know that many customers have limited coding skills or none at all. That’s what attracted them to RW to begin with.

There are many excellent developers who do provide quality documentation.

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I completely agree. When I’m not designing websites, I’m a Business Systems Analyst which is to say I document system changes and requests. The one thing I try to do with my documentation is to give everything the “Spouse” test. That is, let my wife read it. She knows nothing about the process and if she can read my requirements or Use Case and understand what I am describing, I’ve done the job. If she gives me that “what the heck are you doing” look. I go back to the drawing board.

Documentation is essential but you also have to remember who your audience is and write at their level.

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I love the “Spouse” test. I have used it myself, a lot!

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I appreciate all the RW Developers out there, and the community that help out other web dev’s in need. Our whole business is focussed around RW sites. We’re selling 2-6 sites each month, and stacks and RW software is such a small part of my overall P&L statement. KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK, the time savings alone pays for the stacks themselves.

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I had a brief job writing software manuals. It was the best-paid job I ever had but really tough. Having said that, good manuals are essential for most software, although quite a lot of RW addons are self-explanatory.

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We need to be remember that some stack on the market are actually multiple stacks sold in one package.

I had no problem paying an upgrade price to get Joe Workman’s Foundation 6 Stack because I knew I wasn’t getting one stack but close to 90 stacks from it and both Joe’s support and stack are of high quality.

If we were take Joe’s F6 stack in account for which first time purchase price is at $99.95 then there are about 85 stacks in it so that comes down to about a dollar and seventeen cent per stack.

I would say that is pretty cheap for a quality stacks with excellent support which also include free tutorials videos on using it. Joe already produced and released about 20 videos on using the F6 Stack.

Is this all worth the $1.17 per stack we are paying him for?

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Excellent point.

Plus, @joeworkman provides invaluable assistance to the entire RapidWeaver community.

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There are actually 168 stacks in F6, as of today! :grin:

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Show off… :grinning:

It is obvious that the “F6 situation” (for example) is not included in my first questioning… No doubt that the price is worth what you get…

But it’s half (one of two) of the examples you were using as an example.

So now your only complaint is about the price of the new Photo Pro Stack from Nick Gates?

So looking at all the features that Photo Pro offers, I guess you can do that with the standard blocs’ app?

Or do you need to purchase a third-party add-on(bricks) for Blocs that does this? Oh wait, is there any third-party add-ons for Blocs that will do all of what Photo Pro does?

If you’re a professional photographer or a professional web developer, then having something that provides theses features in an easy to use product is well worth the price. You can’t even get a decent camera tripod for that price.

If you’re a hobbyist, then you probably won’t have a need for a professional grade photo gallery so don’t purchase it. The advantage to RapidWeaver is the options are there if you need or want them.

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Yes you’re right ; I was not very clear sorry. I wanted to show the difference between one complete solution and one stack.

I didn’t want to upset someone, because I really like RW, which I’m working with for a long time. And I do use Nick Cates Photos !

I do think that some prices are not very logical, but as someone said ; it is a free market.

Nevermind…

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