Dev Diary Ep37 - Let's talk beta feedback

Hello again,

This bonus edition of the Dev Diary is in response to the feedback we got from Dev Diary Ep36. I thought it was important I try to answer all your feedback in a little more detail.

Sometimes the feedback is hard to hear, and I take it to heart, but I always know it comes from a good place. You guys just want the best possible product and I want to give that to you.

I hope this video comes across okay, and explains a little more on why we do what we do.

Have a great weekend!

Cheers,
Dan

7 Likes

Thanks @Dan! I really appreciate your ongoing transparency with Elements, and I’d much rather you take the time to get Elements right, than rush it out, and not have it resonate in the market.

BTW nice to hear you’re going to reduce the amount of duplication required in components, and standardize the common properties! That should not only make life easier for users, but should also help developers creating custom components by not requiring them to manage additional boilerplate code and properties that have little to do with their actual component.

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Thanks @dan - that was very useful context.

I think you guys have to run at your pace and focus on the areas you think are best to get Elements over the line.

For myself, when I signed up, your sign-up page made it very clear what I was getting into and what I was paying for. I bought Elements because I wanted to support you in your endeavour.

I didn’t have any expectation of being able to produce a production website in the short term. All my use of Elements has been about exploring the software and trying out the features so that I can give feedback that is hopefully helpful.

Keep up the good work! :grinning:

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Thank you for committing the time to provide an explanation for your decisions. It’s often hard to set priorities in public. We just simply don’t all see the processes the same way.

I for one, very much appreciate you allowing us to have input. I believe it has made a big difference. This is episode 36, plus numerous mini updates, that is a lot of progress! Much of it in direct response to our input! Thank you!

Working with your passion, through the good times and the bad, is a blessing from God many never have the courage to take advantage of. RM has changed the world because of you and your team’s actions and skills. Again, thank you! Keep going…

And I AGREE! Elements is going to be the best first release package I have ever used on the Mac, literally since 2004.

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@dan thanks , insight into Elements roadmap, the steps to get to a finished product, you probably have more to reveal

I knew when I purchased ,it was beta, not finished, bugs, different timelines for different parts, chance to play and feedback in the the development

Without Elements I would not have started to learn html css and tailwind, still a long way to go, my wife does not like Elements :joy: :joy:

The built in editor etc to build custom components is brilliant

Please update editor, pop out :joy: :joy:

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Two points caught my attention, and I want to express them without being rude. First, I noticed what seemed like a forced sales pitch for Elements over Classic. I believe users should have the freedom to choose for themselves. Elements is indeed impressive and aligns well with current technological needs, but Classic is also expertly crafted and remains a viable professional tool. There’s no need to undermine your original app in order to promote the new one you’re developing.

In my opinion, the most user-friendly and modern web creator, designed with the future in mind, is Blocs. It allows users to build websites seamlessly and continue working on them across devices like iPad and iPhone, which is truly remarkable, and the UI is exceptional.

As a loyal user of your applications—having purchased all, including Ember and Courier—I want to emphasize that Rapidweaver should remain relevant, even with Elements as the future. While Elements may represent the next step, it is still in its early stages. Rapidweaver is already a well-built tool, and that doesn’t render it obsolete. I intended to elaborate on my second observation, but I realize I’ve already written quite a bit on the first! Clearly, I struggle to keep my thoughts concise when I feel passionately about something! :joy:

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20 years…you dont look old enough hahaha

to be honest if the menu and paragraph stuff was better id still be in the beta program…dont really agree with paying for betas its a bit like saying here’s your new car but the wheels come later but not sure when!! but you have to pay now… but I bit the bullet cos I loved using rapid weaver for the last incarnations and also Squash at one time…there was another bug maybe I had before I left and that was I had a video set to start playing when I hovered over it,but nothing happened.
one other point dev36 has not appeared on the Realmac you tube page?

Hi Dan, Great idea to explain a few things through this video. I can only confirm what you said: once you start working with Elements, you quickly won’t want to go back to Classic. I’ve been an RW user since the beginning. So, I’ve used RW with the standard pages. Then came the blocks plugin, which was already a big improvement, eventually leading to Stacks. Elements is by far the biggest advancement since the creation of RW: even though it’s not completely finished yet and there are still many imperfections. I’m convinced that your approach (with open communication and the weekly updates and videos) is the best one. Keep up the good work. The future of web design looks very promising.

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Funny. After watching your previous Dev Diary and then playing some more with the beta I had some reactions that tie into the feedback you’ve been getting.

First, no worries: I’m pretty sure that those that have gone so far as get the beta clearly see the potential here. I showed it to a designer friend and what it could do and he was “wow!” It’s just not done yet, and everyone, including myself, is a bit impatient, as we have sites to design. It’s not helping me that the product I’ve used for my sites can’t make it past Monterey, thus I’m in the quandary of running virtual macOS inside of macOS ;~(.

Others mentioned the linking, and you mentioned the “not sure about Markdown”, so I’ll add my feedback there: direct is better because that’s Elements in a nutshell. If I drop Markdown from the clipboard or other app on a Paragraph, then my expectation is not to see and edit Markdown, but to have that fully rendered and editable. I’m not expecting to type Markdown into Elements.

However, I want to make one comment that you might not react well to. Elements right now is all about design, and not particularly functional for a working site that is constantly expanding in breadth and depth. In other words, I see you putting lots of effort into making it a better designer, but for it to really work in the market as I think you hope it will, it also has to be an excellent production tool, making the day-to-day running of a site better.

Two things came to mind about this. First is that + icon that reappeared in the Pages panel. In a running Web site I don’t want a blank page and then have to rebuild all the site identity onto it, even if I can shortcut that with Globals. What I want when I click + is a list of pages I’ve predesigned that are ready to go (with Lorem epsom text in the heads/body). My sites have articles, data pages, reviews, tutorials, and a handful of other page types. I want to create one of those, not a blank page.

Likewise, the current way the Pages panel works is that I have to manually type in the folder/name info. I really want that inherited from the structure. And when things move in the structure (and they will as the site expands, because you can’t just go deep or go wide, you have to manage both in a complex site) all the links/folders/names need to automatically follow my dragging and dropping.

Again, it’s not design things I’m worried about at this point. I’d say you’ve got that well under control, and my playing with AI and Tailwind shows me that design is really only going to be limited to my imagination.

Note that RapidWeaver Classic has both design and production issues that get in the way of a constantly mutating site, so you’re halfway there ;~).

I hope you don’t take this as criticism, per se, but rather some commentary on what I’d like to see.

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Just a big +1 on NOT having to look at, or work in markdown in Elements, but I’d love to be able to import (either via the clipboard, drag and drop, or file system) markdown to use within an Elements site. Ideally, working with text in Elements would be as pleasant as working in Pages.

If you do happen to add the ability to import markdown from the file system, a BIG bonus would be to keep the file linkage intact, and be able to update the content whenever there are updates to the markdown file itself.

As an example, I often use iA Writer for a lot of my writing, which syncs beautifully with iCloud. Being able to import (file → import, or drag and drop) markdown files from my iA Writer iCloud folder into Elements and keep an active link back to the .md/.txt file would be amazing. That way, I can edit the markdown content in place (using whatever markdown editor I prefer) and then simply have Elements build and publish the site using the updated markdown files.

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This is of course paramount. Your observations I think are spot on.

:+1:

:+1:

Really awesome feedback!

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Dan, without a doubt you do have something very special with Elements. It is on a par with the first Mac computer in terms of innovation.
I want to make one comment about the Paragraph Editor. Going back to MarkUp is to me going backwards. It is like going back to HTML. If that is the only option for Paragraph editing I for one will not be using Elements. I encourage you to work on a powerful WYSYWIG Editor then you won’t have the need for MarkUp (well almost). In your Paragraph Editor I need to ability to flow text into columns as well. Sites like mine sell nothing but provide lots of information.
Well keep up the excellent work and can I encourage you to polish the program well before release.

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There appears to be mostly equal votes for markup and WYSIWYG editors, in this post and a lot others.

Might I suggest both.

And then take it over the top with really good paste filters from standard Mac text and word editors as well as a full featured markup filter.

Also I would like a million dollars and bag of shoestring potatoes to go! :slight_smile:

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I want to go on the record and apologize to Dan and the whole team, I was pretty hard on them when the RW and Stacks split first happened, but watching the development of Elements and the transparency of Dan in letting us see the progress and listening to everyone’s feedback is starting to win me over. FYI: my vote for paragraph editor is to please just make it a markdown stack.

3 Likes

Could you send me the link to download the beta version?

Thanks.

George

Hi Dan is Rapidweaver compatible with Sequoia 15.0 ?

| dan Dan C. Founder, Realmac Software
18 September |

  • | - |

Hello again,

This bonus edition of the Dev Diary is in response to the feedback we got from Dev Diary Ep36. I thought it was important I try to answer all your feedback in a little more detail.

Sometimes the feedback is hard to hear, and I take it to heart, but I always know it comes from a good place. You guys just want the best possible product and I want to give that to you.

I hope this video comes across okay, and explains a little more on why we do what we do.

Have a great weekend!

Cheers,
Dan

Ep36.5 - Beta Feedback


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Hi @dan ,
When I watched this video, I felt that I had to give you - and the team - a big thumbs up. As I think you are doing an amazing job creating Elements.

Working on your dream is the best thing in life. It is extremely hard work and we all know - and see! - that it controls your life 24/7. Choices have to be made and you can’t please everyone at the same time in a complex development process.

It is really great to be able to follow the developments within the beta community. Many thanks for giving the possibility to get involved in the process (bèta-route) and the effort you put in replying, evaluating and implementing the many user-suggestions. Elements is becoming a powerful application this way for the years to come. Many (more) will embrace for its superior user-interface and thus ease of use.

Thanks to you and the team for the continued enthusiasm and boundless energy to achieve all this.

Take care of yourself.

3 Likes

im sure Dan appreciates you telling all here about a rival application :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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I apologize if it came across the wrong way. That wasn’t my intention. I was actually looking for an example of a future-ready app for building websites, aside from Elements, to clarify my point.

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Absolutely agree that Markdown would be a huge step backwards. The state of paragraph editing in Elements is a huge disappointment for me. I’m a designer and appreciate the efforts on the design elements front but like others have said without a reasonable and modern way to input, edit and manage text Elements would be a no go for me.